![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Saw a clip from 2.5 patch
Dan Heng telling Taoran even after reincarnation he will still be the same person.
The fuck is miHoyo trying to do here?
Are they having trouble keeping their own lore straight or are they ret-conning? Is there some extra context that's missing? (I know that this is on context of the memory potion, which Dan Heng also experienced. But Dan Heng insists he is not the same person while claiming Taoran will remain the same, so which one is it you fucking tsundere? And no, individual variation in response to the treatment isn't enough to explain the difference, because Dan Heng is saying he's speaking from personal experience.)
I agree with the OP, Jing Yuan needs to call Dan Heng on his BS. Are you or are you not the same person?! (But this also feeds into the interpretation that Dan Heng is jealous of Dan Feng when it comes to friendship with Jing Yuan given how insistent he is about keeping the identities separated while also apparently internally accepting he's...the same? I swear miHoyo storytelling drives me up a wall.)
no subject
At the beginning of the Luofu arc, he says "I'm not him" because at that point, he actually didn't have a lot of Dan Feng's memories, and doesn't have any point of reference to *feel* that he is the same person, aside from everyone else blaming him for Dan Feng's crimes, even though legally speaking, crimes are not supposed to carry across rebirth.
Then, starting from when he had to delve into the dragon powers and unseal the Arbor, more and more of past incarnation memories started to unlock for him. IMO it may have also helped that he was now able to walk openly on the Luofu, and seeing familiar sights may also be potential triggers (unlike his childhood spent in prison).
Then the events of that PV where he faces off against his heart demon with Dan Feng's face happens somewhere in there. By the time Jingliu's companion mission rolls around, at the end when Jingliu and Blade here having it out, his question about whether he should be held accountable of his past, may honestly be him starting to waver from his original stance.
After that quest, he pretty much locked himself in his room, I guess to navel gaze. It's also why he didn't come out for the Penacony adventure. He needed time to further digest everything that happened on the Luofu.
Then, in the current arc, when revisiting the Luofu, I assume he's finished his introspection and come to a new stance on how he wants to treat his past. Which is what he displays now in the current updates.
no subject
So, like on a character development arc, that's not a bad outline...but the execution is utterly terrible. Especially since the PV's vibe is very much Dan Heng facing down his inner demons and reaffirming his new identity. The whole "Dan Feng is not my future" implies he won't let the past dictate how he lives his current life. Up to the time of the PV, Dan Heng seems to be pretty adamant he's a different person.
The problem with Jingliu's mission is that we don't gey to see what makes Dan Heng question his previous stance. So his last line to Jing Yuan just sounds like he's asking for confirmation of his individuality rather than a genuine shake up of his previous conviction.
If the intent of Dan Heng locking himself up and navel gazing is to arrive at a new conclusion, then...we should've gotten access to those thoughts somehow (whether to dialogue or cutscene or PV or something) to show us how he came around to a new conclusion.
Of course, if we go with the interpretation that Dan Heng is now accepting he's also Dan Feng (I guess 1.5 person theory is back on the table?)...then it's ironic that Jing Yuan is basically going full 2 person mode and denying any connections, staunchly maintaining that Dan Heng's connection to his past is severed to anyone who implies otherwise. What is even this dog blood drama?
Also, Dan Heng essentially saying "yeah I know legally you're a different person but you're still the same as far as I'm concerned" throws all sorts of wrenches into the works. It's like the game is saying the legal framework is 2-person theory but the emotional framework is 1-person theory. Which is like, miHoyo, which one is the story siding with?!
no subject
Patches 1.4 - 2.3 all had very little of Dan Heng showing up, if at all, and switched back on the MC as the focus character. They were also... much better received, in terms of storytelling. So.
> "yeah I know legally you're a different person but you're still the same as far as I'm concerned"
Well, the legal aspect was probably created with the assumption that it's a normal rebirth / forced molt cycle, where all memories are properly cleared. Dan Heng is talking about the specific situation here, where he knows that's not gonna happen.
Dan Heng's view of 1/1.x/2-person theory probably is also contingent on how much memories of his previous incarnations he recovered, how much of it he identifies with etc...which is probably something that changed over time.
no subject
You say flippant but that's probably the real answer.
I mean given the majority of gamers judge story quality based on "is my avatar the hero of the story"... I have very little patience for those people anymore. Gamers in general are bad at recognizing good vs bad storytelling.
I mean that's the reason it's an issue. He's also an exception, so the story is also saying we (the audience) shouldn't be using the "normal" rules to judge his guilt/innocence, which I call bullshit. If, by Dan Heng logic, Taoran remains guilty after reincarnation, then so should Dan Heng. If Dan Heng really believes he's guilty of Dan Feng's crimes, then he should be sending himself back to prison. This is inconsistent and bad writing.
But in the current moment, Dan Heng seems to (based on his words) accept the responsibility of Dan Feng's guilt. But if that's the case then he shouldn't be running off with the Express team, since he's a moral character, hence ought to act like he needs to redeem his crimes. I mean it's possible him actively volunteering to be a character witness and being more proactive is his "redemption", but it looks more like he's just being a decent heroic character and have nothing to do with redemption. Aka, he's not acting like he thinks he's guilty of anything while he's saying he is.
There's a lack of consistency to Dan Heng's internal logic regarding his identity. I mean it's possible he's also hasn't come to a satisfying answer himself, but that's not being shown to us at all.
no subject
No, Dan Heng is saying that if Taoran is going to take the out they forced onto him, then Taoran should be treated like him.
Remember, Dan Heng remained in jail after rebirth for a long time, serving Dan Feng's sentence. And then was later exiled, as part of a commuted sentence, but still a sentence.
Taoran, OTOH, is saying that he expects his "fixed" molting to completely clear him of all charges after his rebirth, and that he'll walk away scott free afterwards as per normal Vidyadhara rebirth procedure.
> But if that's the case then he shouldn't be running off with the Express team, since he's a moral character, hence ought to act like he needs to redeem his crimes.
Uh... Dan Feng trying to "redeem" things is what started the whole mess. What exactly does Dan Heng "redeeming" himself involve? Him being on the Luofu itself is a potential powder keg, and the last time it involved in different factions trying to assassinate himself and Bailu in order for rulership to return to the one true ruler.
Right now Bailu is the official high elder. If Dan Heng expects to remain on the Luofu, he'll need to oust her (likely resulting in her death) or figure out to transfer the rest of his powers to her (likely resulting in his own death, or some other unexpected result given what happened the last time the Arcanum was messed around with). The best he can do here is to stay away, or at least maintain his distance as outsider of the Vidyadhara social circle/leadership, and allow Bailu time to grow into a proper high elder, which will take a lot of time given lifespans.
Dan Heng accepting Dan Feng's guilt just means he can accept the sentence that was carried onto him after Dan Feng's forced molting. But at the current point, he has served that sentence. Going forwards, he will help out the Luofu when called on, such as when he did during the Arbor crisis. And more recently as witness on Jing Yuan's behalf, and for taking down Taoran in the Hoolay mess. I don't see how else he needs to "redeem" himself without retreading Dan Feng's footsteps and trying to solve the Vidyadhara reproduction problem (which is the real root of the Preceptor's downward spiral).
And honestly, speaking from the political side of the Xianzhou's government, Dan Heng is currently more useful as a member of the Astral Express than as an source of polarization/factionalization among the local Vidyadhara population.
Like, the Astral Express may only be a few people right now, but it represents by itself a major faction among the cosmos. The revolution of Penacony from rebellious prison colony to the modern luxury world was led in part by a band of Nameless who stayed with the planet after leaving the Express. The cosmic mega conglomerate, the IPC, went out of its way to be friends rather than enemies (despite being perfectly able to kick our butts when we interceded against them on Belobog's behalf). In the political standoff between The Family and the IPC over Penacony at the end of that arc, both sides eventually agreed to allow the Express take 5% of total ownership, as the neutral party both sides will trust. We have direct lines to multiple members of the Genius Society, who often don't give mere mortals the time of day, and are often individually treated with more care than major heads of state. We're close to the once-considered impossible Emanator of Nihility. There's multiple Memokeepers on our heels. There's a good reason this is the faction that the Protagonist(s) belong to.
no subject
丹恒: "我不会借口「一无所知」而轻易为自己宽宥往罪，也不会任由你们乘隙脱责。"
He's literally saying "I'm not going to excuse my past crime with 'I don't remember', just like I can't let you use this as a way escape responsibility". He's not talking about serving a sentence, he's talking specifically about being saddled with the guilt.
It's not about serving the sentence, it's about the fact that Dan Heng holds himself accountable for the crime Dan Feng committed. He literally said he hasn't forgiven himself for it (我不会借口「一无所知」而轻易为自己宽宥往罪), which is a 180 turn in attitude from the past.
That's why he prefaced the entire convo with "持明转生，前世之罪一笔勾销...但龙师们在转世过程中所做的龌龊手脚我也不是不清楚。" He's basically saying the memory potion, of which he personally experienced, means Taoran shouldn't be considered "reborn anew". He's cannot be more clear that as far as Dan Heng's conscience is concerned, if Taoran goes through with 褪磷, their level of guilt (责) with respect to their crimes is the same.
Uh...that's not how I would interpret the line, at the very least not in the Chinese script. He definitely is saying he accepts responsibility for the crime and hasn't forgiven himself, aka he feels he still has blame that he needs to make up for.
责 isn't a legal term, it's an emotional term. This is about how much blame one shoulders for one's wrongs. Dan Feng's whole point is "you can't escape the blame because I know (through personal experience) you're still guilty".
If Dan Heng really believes 我不会借口「一无所知」而轻易为自己宽宥往罪, then that means he doesn't think he's fully repaired the harm Dan Feng caused. Like, on an emotional level, he's supposedly still self-flagellating. So "redemption" would involve further reparations. "Freedom" wouldn't have been "earned" in this case.
Being with the Express team is very much the opposite of self-punishment.
This is why I'm saying the character is written in a confused way. If he's still feeling guilty, then (seeing as he's a good guy) we should see actions of this self-flagellation he's supposedly undergoing.
See, I don't see any of this stuff as self-punishing. Any heroically minded person would do this. Helping with the Arbor happened after Jing Yuan twisted his arm, so not exactly a willing participant. Being a character witness...Fuxuan and MC also did it, so this is normal heroic action. Taking down Taoran because he's not constrained by the legality of harming Vidyadhara as an outsider is...again, not really a punishment on him so much as any heroic person would've done so. I see no action involving repentance to deal with the blame aspect of the guilt.
From a writing perspective, to show the character is repenting their guilt, the redemption arc usually involves proactive help, not reactive help. Offers to carry/share a burden that doesn't directly involves him would be a good step. Like, actively checking in on Luofu, staying in touch with multiple bureaucrats to offer his services, or ask to rescind his commutation (the story can always have Jing Yuan reject the proposal), etc. For example, Jingliu refers to herself as 罪人 because she hasn't forgiven herself. That kind of shit.
The story didn't show us Dan Heng choosing to stay with the Express out of a desire to stay useful. He stayed because the Express are his friends. He even made a point that he has to return to them because they're his friends. There's no sense that being on the Express is any form of sacrifice.
Without sacrifice, there can't be redemption.
That's from the plot needs perspective and completely ignores character emotional needs. Dan Heng didn't choose the Express after weighing all the stuff you mentioned against how helpful he'd be on Luofu. He made the decision out of a desire to stay with his friends, not to punish himself.
But his words "我不会借口「一无所知」而轻易为自己宽宥往罪，也不会任由你们乘隙脱责" implies he hasn't forgiven himself and is still looking to redeem his crimes. But he's not acting like it.
no subject
But that doesn't make sense in this context, because Taoran obviously isn't feeling guilty of his actions now. On the contrary, he still thinks he's right to have done all that he had. So of course he wouldn't feel guilty about it afterwards if he keeps his memories.
It would make much more sense if Dan Heng is referring here to an objective "responsibility" for crimes committed, rather than the subjective "guilt".
> Being with the Express team is very much the opposite of self-punishment.
So...you're saying he needs to be re-cast into a edgy woe is me I must cut myself Blade 2.0 character? Nobody wants that.
no subject
It's a dual concept. There's holding oneself responsible and being held responsible. When the latter is lacking, then the former steps in.
In the case with Taoran, since he's trying to wiggle out of having to pay (aka responsibility/guilt), Dan Feng's point is he'll make sure Taoran regrets his actions. How he plans to do that...well, torture is clearly still an option in the Xianzhou criminal punishment system.
Yes...which is why Dan Heng is saying he will make Taoran regret. Maybe guilt is a poor word to use here. Regret is the aim.
I can only say in no way does 责 refer to an objective concept. It's emotional. I will conceded the better word here is regret. Dan Heng regrets his crime and he's promising Taoran he will make sure Taoran regrets just as much.
No because I don't think Dan Heng should've been expressing belief about being responsible for Dan Feng's crimes in the first place.
But if the writers are going to put those words in his mouth, then his actions don't fit. Which goes back to my issue with the writing, because this ignores the character.
But simultaneously, it is possible to make a self-flagellating character without being all "woe-is-me". As I mentioned, having Dan Heng offer to sit in prison some more and then have Jing Yuan telling him he'll be more useful as an Express member would circumvent the problem. That scenario would have made being on the Express an actual punishment, instead of a reward for self actualization (which is how it is portrayed).
And also, Dan Heng is already an edgy emo woe-is-me boy. He's just not psychotic like Blade. The entire Ichor of Two Dragons PV is him being edgy emo woe-is-me. The entire DHIL reveal is edgy emo. Dan Heng shows plenty of self pity. What I'm not seeing is self blame and genuine regret. (Again, I don't think that ought to be the direction for the character, but those are the words coming out of his mouth.)
no subject
> having Dan Heng offer to sit in prison
What purpose would that serve other than create more political problems for everyone? The only feelings such a gesture would be appeasing would be his own in that hypothetical scenario, which would make it a completely selfish gesture.
no subject
罚 is punishment. 任 is responsibility. 责 is the (noun as) adjective modifying those two nouns. 责罚 is a compound phrase meaning a punishment that's supposed to address the wrong being talked about. 责任 is also a compound phrase referring to assigning responsibility to the wrong being committed.
Meanwhile, putting 责 after a verb (脱责，推责，问责， etc.) makes 责 the noun. As a noun, 责 refers to the guilt/responsibility/blame based on the verb proceeding it.
Remember, Chinese is contextual, every character has multiple related meanings that changes based on how the sentence is structured. There isn't only one meaning to each character.
The intent of punishment is to make the wrong doer regret their actions so they don't do it again. If the wrong doer doesn't show regret, the punishment fails to serve the function of a punishment. Criminal punishment isn't (supposed to be) about satisfying the vindictive wants of the wronged party/victim. If the purpose of punishment is to simply appease the sadistic anger of the victim, that's not punishment, that's called torture.
So yes, it has everything to do with regret. Dan Heng's point is he's going to make sure Taoran cannot get out of the situation without regret (scot free), just like he, Dan Heng, cannot hide behind "I don't remember" as a way to escape his association to Dan Feng's crime.
I feel like you're confusing story framing and meta reasoning.
Because we get zero indication of Dan Heng's internal thoughts, we need external acts to reveal his emotions, in this case guilt. Obviously, if the game is capable of showing us that Dan Heng feels guilty through other means, then they can go through those methods instead.
As for it only serving to appease his own guilt, this is obviously in the context of everything that's already been written. Nothing have demonstrated that Dan Heng's decision to stay on the Express is out of consideration for Luofu's political problems. There is no textual evidence Dan Heng was thinking about the politics when he rejected Jing Yuan's offer to stay in Luofu after the boss fight. Every line Dan Heng has said, including the framing of the PV, points to him staying with the Express out of friendship, not because it's the most useful/right thing he can do.
Dan Heng's character agency has always been to chase after freedom and run away from the mess Dan Feng started. Morally upright character (Jing Yuan) supports this, which is the story framing the situation as "Dan Heng is a victim, he is not guilty, he deserves happiness with the Express crew".
The Express, being the host of the Main Character, obviously is going to be the most capable of solving any problem. That's a meta-texual reason due to Main Character shield. That's a terrible in-story reason and not to mention not even the reason Dan Heng gives for choosing to stay with the Express team.
Again, if we're shown Dan Heng decides to stay with the Express because he thinks this is the best way to repent for his crimes (by being helpful) that would be fine, too. But there is no textual support for this interpretation. The text of the story treats being with the Express as a reward for Dan Heng's self actualization.
Again, I'm not saying this is bad. But, that makes Dan Heng's line about how he can't clear himself of Dan Feng's crime bad writing. It goes against everything that came before.
If it was always the intention for Dan Heng to transition from "I'm not Dan Feng" to "OK, maybe I am Dan Feng", then the entire DHIL reveal and PV is undermining that character arc. Dan Heng shouldn't have been triumphing over imaginary!Dan Feng's accusations, those accusations should make him waver and changing his opinion instead. But the first Luofu arc reinforced the stance that Dan Heng (and his experiences with the Express) makes him a completely different person. The punishment he received is morally wrong, he's been victimized, not justly punished.
This patch completely goes against that text. That's why I'm saying the writing is bad. There's been zero setup or foreshadowing of this supposed character growth. Using "but being on the Express is most useful" is a post-hoc explanation, not ad-hoc reasoning.
no subject
Which is why I think you are reading too much in to this dialogue... You do remember you were the one ranting at how awful the chinese writing was and the incorrect usage of classic/archaic/colloquial right?
> Criminal punishment isn't (supposed to be) about satisfying the vindictive wants of the wronged party/victim.
Err... you might be mixing up reality and game. Because with Hoolay, as an example, his was obviously a target of vindictive punishment. Because as Jing Yuan and Lingsha say in their conversation, there were methods of executing him. But it wasn't done, because the Foxians (1) didn't want him to die so easily to satisfy them, and (2) they were looking for a cure to the moon rage from researching him.
And then there's the heliobi, who's punishment for attempting to possess the population of the Xianzhou are getting all locked in a forge and forced to provide energy for the Zhuming, eternally.
As for the conversation with Taoran that started this, I honestly think Dan Heng words was just an outburst letting his feelings out. Because in actually, he has zero control over what happens to Taoran after capture. Well, unless he's willing to kill the guy permanently right there before anyone can stop him, which he didn't.
> If it was always the intention for Dan Heng to transition from "I'm not Dan Feng" to "OK, maybe I am Dan Feng", then the entire DHIL reveal and PV is undermining that character arc.
I don't think that is the 180 turn they are going for though, and you might be reading too much into this short conversation.
Dan Heng hasn't shown any signs of seeing himself as totally Dan Feng, continued. At most, he seems to have accepted some parts of his regained but incomplete memories of Dan Feng, and with it, some sense of duty and obligation to the Luofu. From an *external* perspective, that's all we've seen from him.
no subject
I'm talking about the reality of how the word is used. The game writing is bad if it ignores the reality context of these words' origins.
Yes, this is part of the balancing that needed to be done. People want vindictive satisfaction. That's the politics. Letting Foxians have their vengeance puts the rest of Xianzhou at risk, so the compromise is to lock Hoolay in a different ship's prison.
This in no way nullify the reasoning behind criminal punishment. The game isn't calling what's happening to Hoolay "追责" or "责罚". I don't think the writers are so shit they can't even separate torture from punishment.
Life imprisonment with forced labor isn't torture... That's a pretty common sentence even in societies where rule of law is the norm.
I agree that's what's happening. That's why it's frustrating, because this is Dan Heng's perspective. He's placing the blame on Taoran - beyond this single incarnation, but his reasoning stems from his own relationship with his past life. He's not drawing a distinction between what he went through versus what Taoran will go through if Taoran is forced to molt as punishment. And because he doesn't see a distinction, he expressed feelings of guilt for Dan Feng's crimes (because good people feel bad if they think they did a wrong).
A huge problem with the writing is that the story treats the two situations as morally different (even though the character doesn't). The writers clearly think that Taoran should still be held responsible for his crimes even after molting because of the memory potion. However, the writers also treat Dan Heng as a victim who has been wronged, despite also having been given the memory potion.
That inconsistentency is what's leading to this out of character dialogue. The writers are essentially subscribing to the ethical stance that whether something is right or wrong is dependant on who is doing the action rather than the content of the action.
If lying is bad, then a good person lying (with good intentions) should still be bad. Similarly, if Dan Heng shouldn't be held responsible for Dan Feng's crimes, then neither should Taoran's reincarnation. The writers are clearly unwilling to wite the story this way, because Taoran is a bad guy, he can't be allowed to get away "scot free", so they do this awkward thing where Dan Heng does the condemning. They want to have their political drama without delving into the gray morality that comes with political drama.
Since Dan Heng said 你虽不是你，但你还会是你, that pretty clearly states Dan Heng believes Taoran post-molt remains Taoran due to the memory potion. By that reasoning, then Dan Heng have accepted he is also Dan Feng, because he got the same treatment.
Hence why the OP of the clip made the comment 景元，听我的，你现在就管他叫丹枫。Clearly the OP doesn't buy Dan Heng's reasoning either.
no subject
But he was still tortured for 700 years on the Luofu. Does it matter where the torture takes place?
> Similarly, if Dan Heng shouldn't be held responsible for Dan Feng's crimes, then neither should Taoran's reincarnation.
Nitpick: Dan Heng did end up getting to pay for Dan Feng's crimes though, legally. So he at least can get to say that Taoran should also get the same treatment he got.
> Since Dan Heng said 你虽不是你，但你还会是你, that pretty clearly states Dan Heng believes Taoran post-molt remains Taoran due to the memory potion.
It would help if we got more info on how the memory potion thing worked for Taoran specifically. Because he seems to think it will be different for him than how we see it work on Dan Heng through his first person POV lore background sections.
no subject
The Marshal obviously isn't concerned with the torturing, she's concerned about what happens if someone uses Hoolay to experiment.
The writers on the other hand don't treat what happens to Hoolay as normal punishment. They straight up call it torture. My point is the writers clearly make a distinction between regular criminal punishment and torture. They're just don't seem to be ethically opposed to torture... The writers are clearly of the belief torturing a good guy is bad, but torturing bad guys is fine.
He did, sure. But he seems to be of the opinion that he still remains responsible, the debt to society not fully repaired (or maybe debt to Jing Yuan, but Jing Yuan basically = Luofu's well being anyway, so it's more or less thr same).
But I'm still of the opinion Dan Heng was tortured unjustly and the story never should have back tracked on that. This is the re-contextualizing for the sake of plot drama that bad writers do.
I don't think Dan Heng thinks the effects differ enough to matter. And Dan Heng's opinion on the matter informs us on how he sees himself and his relation with Dan Feng. But yeah, from an ethical clarification perspective and drawing a distinction between Dan Heng's situation vs Taoran's situation, that would at least give the writer's an out.
But the writing sucks, so they don't bother.
no subject
Forced molting is so passe. As Lingsha and her old master can attest to, exile is the hot fad for political dissidents nowadays. *eyeroll*.
And they should let her deliver the debate and the zinger! OMG, writers. Lingsha is the upcoming banner you are trying to sell but you barely give her any good screen time! Why does she only get to snipe at Jing Yuan, who at most let them get exiled out of neglect, but more likely out of protection... but not let her get her blows in at the *actual* political rivals that forced their exile? Gyah!
no subject
Well, the problem I'm seeing is that the writers are cribbing from court drama plot. Think classic "the border is getting invaded by nomads, spies and traitors are in our midst, the evil civilian ministers are putting their personal interests over the interest of the kingdom and trying to destroy the loyal generals" type of story. Like, yeah, that shit's popular, but there's zero explanation of the political structure, everything is guess work... Plus they have to somehow tie this to apparently the space travel shit that's happening on other planets. It's nonsense.
I mean that doesn't address the root of the problem, which is there is severe disunity in the alliance. Getting rid of Taoran won't disuade the seditious faction from backstabbing the alliance/Luofu (seems like this is a localized Luofu problem for some reason?).
Er, wasn't Lingsha's master involved in the definitely illegal usage of the memory potion on Dan Heng? That seems to be what the screencaps were saying. I doubt it was neglect so much as more of Jing Yuan's struggles to keep slowly chipping away at the seditious faction while trying to ensure things don't get too crazy or accidentally get Bailu killed in the process. He clearly didn't feel like he could go on a corruption weeding spree and needed to pull the threads carefully because there were too many intertwined interests. At least that seems to be the implication.
no subject
Well obviously they won't actually be *doing* that. And not like Lingsha or Dan Heng has that authority to carry it out. I'm just saying it makes more sense to say that in their verbal spar rather than what we got.
> Er, wasn't Lingsha's master involved in the definitely illegal usage of the memory potion on Dan Heng?
Sure, but that happened when Dan Heng was just reborn, since the potion needs to be taken within the first 5 years of rebirth. But their exile only happened around 30 years ago, which is far more recent. So obviously that wasn't the reason for it.
Lingsha says pretty clearly that her master was framed for something by the hidden traitor faction in the Alchemy Commission. In that respect, their exile to the Zhuming seems to be at least partially a protective measure from Jing Yuan, but also a sign that he couldn't do anything yet about the building Sanctus Medicus faction in that department. From Lingsha's POV, she's bitter at what she sees as Jing Yuan's mistake.
no subject
I know the 30 years is explicit, because Lingsha stated those numbers outright. How do we know Dan Heng wasn't reborn much more recently than previously thought? From what I've seen, fans seem to assume Dan Feng was old already by the time of Sedition, so he already didn't have many years left, but that's pretty much baseless conjecture. Furthermore, we have no idea how the hatching time of the egg works. It's entirely possible that Dan Heng was hatched much more recently, like he's closer to 50yo than 200yo.
Is there some item that explicitly mentions the amount of time Dan Heng spent in jail beyond "very long time"? Or maybe a mention of how long he spent doing other stuff before joining Express team?
Framed or not, she's still guilty of actually administering the memory potion. She knew she was doing something illegal, it was going to have consequences. Even if she was innocent of other crimes, she's still guilty of using illegal substances.
Would be nice if Jing Yuan defends his decisions in any shape or form...
no subject
Eh, I guess there is room for that interpretation, because the game likes to keep most characters' age as vague and mysterious as possible. (And in the cases where they don't, it usually turns into a messy timeline problem; see Serval, Pela, Sushang)
But if Dan Heng is under 30 years old, then either Dan Feng was kept in jail for a longer time than we thought, or their time in between spent as an egg lasted for a looot of centuries.
> Would be nice if Jing Yuan defends his decisions in any shape or form
The whole conversation was weird. Like, I know his role was there to exposition the info the writers wanted to show. But the line about drugging baby Dan Heng seemed like a non-sequitor aimed at distracting his two companions (and the players) into dropping the current subject.
no subject
Writers don't have an internal timeline at all confirmed.
Dan Heng has to be at least 30 years old tho, since the exile of Lingsha's master happened 30 years ago. Even assuming she was processed immediately, there's still trial time and stuff.
Taoran did say Dan Feng's trial took a very long time. Also DHIL personal story contains memories of Preceptors questioning him (Dan Feng) repeatedly. So probably the whole kept getting delayed or dragged out to buy the Preceptors more time with Dan Feng.
I think egg hatching might be shorter simply because we have that one quest where the Vidyadhara dates the same woman over the course of 4 cycles. If we assume the woman is 1000yo and each incarnation averages 300 years due to shitty luck or something, that still only leaves about 100 years to hatch 3 times, roughly 30 years hatching time.
On the other hand, we have Bailu, but her hatch time is probably not normal and can't really be used as a reference.
I thought it's meant to let Lingsha know she doesn't have the whole story and she may not want to know the whole story because it's pretty ugly. A "you think your master was framed but she actually had a lot more agency than you think" kind of statement.
no subject
Hm, well... Yunhua was exiled due to the growing Sanctus Medicus faction in the Alchemy Commission. This was a revitalization of an old and faded out cult worshipping the Abundance, and it was revitalized by Dan Shu after she turned to the Abundance after PTSD from the Third Abundance War.
The Third Abundance War has an actual date -- 8072 Star Calendar. Present day is 8100 (the Luofu crisis took place around March. The current wardance is taking place in August). That's 28 years in between. Maybe less, since it probably took Dan Shu some time to build her cult and political power, and Yunhua to notice and try to fight it.
But still, something like 26-27 can still be rounded to 30 for a round number. As the absolute minimum age Dan Heng could be, I guess.
> Even assuming she was processed immediately, there's still trial time and stuff.
Eh, but if we throw that in, his age can still be possibly in the 100-200s, depending on how the average trial time the trial took. That is, assuming the trial started over her dosing of Dan Heng, and then later ended with her loss after Dan Shu came into power.
> Taoran did say Dan Feng's trial took a very long time.
I think someone would've noted it if it took more than 500 years, lol. Also, if it took that long, he'd already be near the end of his natural lifespan. In which case, what is the point of forced molting? o_O
> I think egg hatching might be shorter simply because we have that one quest where the Vidyadhara dates the same woman over the course of 4 cycles.
Eh, that's just one person though. It seems egg development rates and post-hatching growth rates differ between person to person.
Like in Scalegorge Waterscape, there's at least one egg that belongs to one of Dan Feng's guards, who still clings to his/her old memories and hasn't hatched yet.
no subject
Trial time probably depends on the complexity of the case. Dan Feng's case probably took a long time because lots of people were involved and much deal trading was happening. Plus, it involves the top leadership of Vidyadhara who have some degree of autonomy, which means even more levels of negotiation. Meanwhile, use of illegal substances probably is far more straightforward and a much shorter trial.
Ending the Imbibitor Lunae line. I think the lineage is the actual issue that was discussed. Dan Feng was going to die, that was non-negotiable. But whether Imbibitor Lunae is allowed to continue was the real question. Ending IL means Luofu Vidyadhara would need to select a new 龙尊 to take over, which could result in a bloody internal succession battle that further diminish the population size. (They were ready to murder Bailu over this. Like murder-murder, not forced molting.) So there was likely real concern over whether the expediency of eliminating IL for good is worth the risk of succession conflict.
I mean I get that technically Dan Heng being exiled is not that much different from killing IL in terms of succession politicking, but having the guy alive still means, in the minds of the old guard, a chance of restoring the old line and thus tamp down on the ambitions of would be successors. The psychological effect of knowing "the rightful king" (as it were) is still out there is a pretty strong deterent.
I mean fair, but if we assume IL's egg takes several hundred years to hatch, that raises a political question: what happens to the political leadership when IL is an egg? Like a few decades away, sure, you can recover political power from that. But 500 years? There's no way to have stable transition of power. The Vidyadhara society should by all rights be in complete shambles. I mean look at the current state of Luofu Vidyadhara after not having a leader for 700 years, they've split into 3 major factions that are ready to kill each other over the throne.
From just a practical standpoint, I don't think IL hatch speed can afford to take a long time. Based on the time it takes to solidify political control, I'd say 70 years tops.
no subject
I dunno, if it was just that, just a dismissal from her job and maybe pulling her credentials would've been enough. Outright exile seems to indicate there was more going on.
Also, Lingsha says Yunhua was exiled due to being framed. Obviously, she's not referring to drugging Dan Heng, because Lingsha didn't even know about that incident. So the stuff she was being officially tried for was other stuff. May well have gotten political since it centered around the power balance of the Alchemy Commission.
> Ending IL means Luofu Vidyadhara would need to select a new 龙尊 to take over
Wut? What are you talking about?
If you are talking about the titular position of high elder, Dan Feng already named Bailu his successor. That had nothing to do with his sentencing of forced molting or when it was decided to be carried out.
I'm talking about the issue *WHEN* the forced molting took place, not the *WHY* he was sentenced. If they took 500 years to actually decide on the sentencing of forced molting, that's taking the hypothetical political trading to a completely absurd degree, and such a government should be completely incapable of doing anything important. If they decided on the sentencing after a few years or even a few decades (the max I could suspend disbelief for), that still means the forced molting should've been enforced 600+ years ago.
> what happens to the political leadership when IL is an egg?
Dunno, it's not like we have a concrete example. Maybe usually the high elder has a faster rebirth rate, and this time it was slowed because the inheritance was split between Dan Heng and Bailu. Maybe in future patches they'll tell us more.
no subject
According to the entry of the potion (前尘回梦针):
So by law, the sentence is forced molting. Exile is getting off easy.
We actually have no clue when he named her the successor. Like, did he know the dead abomination was going to turn into a viable Vidyadhara? How would he be sure of this? Since the process was experimental, what was he going to do if the egg turns out to be a dud?
I would assume he could only name her the successor after confirming the egg would hatch. That suggests he'd have to be alive for at least that long.
In the mean time, his trial still has to go on and there will still need to be debate over what to do with Imbibitor Lunae line. Even if we assume the succession has been named before arrest (which, again, sounds iffy due to not having any idea of whether the experiment would be a success), then preservation of IL would be even more problematic.
Imagine a king has a prince that should've been the rightful heir, but the king gets deposed and the ministers claim that actually his majesty named the princess the heir instead...there'll definitely be people who want to install the prince, simply because he's available. At that point, it'll be much more politically stable to kill the prince along with the king to eliminate succession arguments.
I'm pointing out that even at the end of Dan Feng's lifespan, the question of death vs molting would still be relevant. You were saying that it wouldn't matter at that point, but I think it matters regardless of when the sentence was carried out.
As for the exact timing...
500 years may be excessive, but there are cases of criminal (murder) trials that go on for literally 60 years that still never get fully settled IRL, where our average life expectancy is only 84 years. In US alone, many inmates die of old age waiting for their trials to reach a conclusion. Political prisoners can go through easily 40 years of trials without results on the regular. I imagine a complicated case like Dan Feng's isn't resolved in one go, but rather goes through trial, retrial, appeal, etc.
I mean the guy is in prison and not at risk of escape or jailbreak. That gives bureaucrats all the time they want to litigate a satisfying result.
I think you'd be surprised how inefficient the criminal trial system can be while still having a functional government.
There's also the issue of whether the sentence will be carried out immediately. It's also possible the reason the process took a long time is that Ten-Lords decided on execution, but the preceptors appealed the decision, Jing Yuan steps in to ask for a stay of execution to debate the issue further, blah blah back and forth for a couple hundred years. This is pretty normal both IRL and in fiction.
Plus, even death sentences aren't immediate. Just because the sentence is finalized doesn't mean its carried out immediately. Over half of US death row inmates (aka prisoners who received death penalty) wait OVER 18 YEARS before the execution is carried out. A similar thing could happen to Dan Feng, except the wait is like 200 years instead of 18.
no subject
I mean, we don't know Bailu's age either. We also don't know what happened after the monster was killed and somehow a viable egg came out of it.
But the common presumption was that once there was a viable Vidyadhara egg with (half of) the power of the high elder inheritance in it, it was a viable candidate for succession. *shrug*
> I'm pointing out that even at the end of Dan Feng's lifespan, the question of death vs molting would still be relevant.
I'm not talking about death vs molting at that point though. I'm talking about the point after they already sentenced him to molt and not death, and subsequently when that molting was carried out. Because if they dragged it on too long and past his natural lifespan, he's going to do the natural rebirth automatically. What's the point of forced molting if they wait til that point or after that happens? So of course this all needs to take place before the estimated end of his lifespan.
no subject
Would be funny if Bailu is technically older than Dan Heng... (Since we know she was given a medicine to suppress her aging, so her appearance doesn't reflect her age, even by Vidyadhara standards.)
I thought Dan Feng named her the successor? That implies he gave verbal/written indication. If her becoming the successor was automatic due to having powers, then Dan Feng had no real agency in making Bailu the successor, seeing as Dan Feng wasn't sure what was coming out of his experiment.
Sure, but we have no clue how much natural lifespan remained when Dan Feng was arrested. The only reason fandom thought he didn't have very long left was because of one folk song, which we know are not reliable accounts of anything.
If Dan Heng is only 30 years old, then Vidyadhara development is much faster than fans thought, making Dan Feng's age (based on appearance) on the young end during arrest. That means he'd have easily another 400-500 years to spend rotting in prison.
I don't think it's likely, but then again, I don't think miHoyo themselves know when any of this stuff happens either, so they just handwave away everything and end up with weird timescales.
no subject
> I thought Dan Feng named her the successor?
Sure, but there's a log of wiggle room to interpret when it happened, because it was all so vague and mysteriously stated.
Like, we don't know if she was an egg at the time, hatched, or some other weird state...
> If her becoming the successor was automatic due to having powers
No, it's not automatic. Dan Feng naming her successor was important, in terms of internal Vidyadhara tradition/law/whatever. That action has to be locked in, for her to have the current high elder position. It's not something anyone else other than Dan Feng can confer, and it was specifically Dan Feng who conferred it.
> If Dan Heng is only 30 years old, then Vidyadhara development is much faster than fans thought
Or has greater variation in growth rates per rebirth...
I mean, there was one readable who had a dude complaining about being defeated by a fellow Vidyadhara cloud knight trainee who only came up to his chest (so child-sized similar to Bailu), but was over 80 years old. But if Dan Heng is only in his 30s, he's definitely not child-sized.
There's also a kid-sized Vidyadhara on Herta's Space station, a fully accredited researcher and everything. But I find it hard to believe she's actually a kid (mentally), since I doubt the Xianzhou would've allowed actual minors (mentally) to go off-world by themselves without a chaperone.
Let's throw Taoran in there while we're at it... He presumably went through natural rebirth some time after Dan Feng's molting. But he now looks older than Dan Heng. *shrug*
> I don't think it's likely, but then again, I don't think miHoyo themselves know when any of this stuff happens either
Yes, I expect we will end up with self contradictory timeline in the end. Maybe it's best they stop trying to fill in the blanks. -_-
no subject
Hm...interesting. I guess that's more an implication due to that medication existing on the same item that contained the entry on the memory potion, but there's nothing explicit.
Yeah, so the most likely time this happened must have been while he was in jail, as I mentioned it doesn't make sense to name his experiment the successor before he can confirm it was a success.
Based on common sense, someone would have to inform him that his abomination dragon turned into an egg and it shows signs of becoming a viable Vidyadhara or that Bailu already hatched to confirm the success of his experiment. At which point Dan Feng can name her the successor since he's...well, in jail. But that's reasonable and logical, so miHoyo probably will write something completely different.
Very fair point. Maybe traveling on the Express stunted Dan Heng's growth.
Or maybe the reality is miHoyo sucks at writing.
This is my constant ambivalence when it comes to Xianzhou. Lore-wise it's the most interesting, but the more story happens there the worse the story gets.