Saw a clip from 2.5 patch

[cashew]

Dan Heng telling Taoran even after reincarnation he will still be the same person.

The fuck is miHoyo trying to do here?

Are they having trouble keeping their own lore straight or are they ret-conning? Is there some extra context that's missing? (I know that this is on context of the memory potion, which Dan Heng also experienced. But Dan Heng insists he is not the same person while claiming Taoran will remain the same, so which one is it you fucking tsundere? And no, individual variation in response to the treatment isn't enough to explain the difference, because Dan Heng is saying he's speaking from personal experience.)

I agree with the OP, Jing Yuan needs to call Dan Heng on his BS. Are you or are you not the same person?! (But this also feeds into the interpretation that Dan Heng is jealous of Dan Feng when it comes to friendship with Jing Yuan given how insistent he is about keeping the identities separated while also apparently internally accepting he's...the same? I swear miHoyo storytelling drives me up a wall.)

Comments

[cashew]

that whole scene would've worked better if they don't go along with Taoran's line of conversation

Well, the problem I'm seeing is that the writers are cribbing from court drama plot. Think classic "the border is getting invaded by nomads, spies and traitors are in our midst, the evil civilian ministers are putting their personal interests over the interest of the kingdom and trying to destroy the loyal generals" type of story. Like, yeah, that shit's popular, but there's zero explanation of the political structure, everything is guess work... Plus they have to somehow tie this to apparently the space travel shit that's happening on other planets. It's nonsense.

just threaten to exile him and his cohorts to join Phantylia if they think teaming up with an agent of Destruction is such a great idea

I mean that doesn't address the root of the problem, which is there is severe disunity in the alliance. Getting rid of Taoran won't disuade the seditious faction from backstabbing the alliance/Luofu (seems like this is a localized Luofu problem for some reason?).

Why does she only get to snipe at Jing Yuan, who at most let them get exiled out of neglect, but more likely out of protection...

Er, wasn't Lingsha's master involved in the definitely illegal usage of the memory potion on Dan Heng? That seems to be what the screencaps were saying. I doubt it was neglect so much as more of Jing Yuan's struggles to keep slowly chipping away at the seditious faction while trying to ensure things don't get too crazy or accidentally get Bailu killed in the process. He clearly didn't feel like he could go on a corruption weeding spree and needed to pull the threads carefully because there were too many intertwined interests. At least that seems to be the implication.

[tanithryudo]

> I mean that doesn't address the root of the problem

Well obviously they won't actually be *doing* that. And not like Lingsha or Dan Heng has that authority to carry it out. I'm just saying it makes more sense to say that in their verbal spar rather than what we got.

> Er, wasn't Lingsha's master involved in the definitely illegal usage of the memory potion on Dan Heng?

Sure, but that happened when Dan Heng was just reborn, since the potion needs to be taken within the first 5 years of rebirth. But their exile only happened around 30 years ago, which is far more recent. So obviously that wasn't the reason for it.

Lingsha says pretty clearly that her master was framed for something by the hidden traitor faction in the Alchemy Commission. In that respect, their exile to the Zhuming seems to be at least partially a protective measure from Jing Yuan, but also a sign that he couldn't do anything yet about the building Sanctus Medicus faction in that department. From Lingsha's POV, she's bitter at what she sees as Jing Yuan's mistake.

[cashew]

happened when Dan Heng was just reborn, since the potion needs to be taken within the first 5 years of rebirth. But their exile only happened around 30 years ago, which is far more recent.

I know the 30 years is explicit, because Lingsha stated those numbers outright. How do we know Dan Heng wasn't reborn much more recently than previously thought? From what I've seen, fans seem to assume Dan Feng was old already by the time of Sedition, so he already didn't have many years left, but that's pretty much baseless conjecture. Furthermore, we have no idea how the hatching time of the egg works. It's entirely possible that Dan Heng was hatched much more recently, like he's closer to 50yo than 200yo.

Is there some item that explicitly mentions the amount of time Dan Heng spent in jail beyond "very long time"? Or maybe a mention of how long he spent doing other stuff before joining Express team?

Lingsha says pretty clearly that her master was framed for something by the hidden traitor faction in the Alchemy Commission.

Framed or not, she's still guilty of actually administering the memory potion. She knew she was doing something illegal, it was going to have consequences. Even if she was innocent of other crimes, she's still guilty of using illegal substances.

In that respect, their exile to the Zhuming seems to be at least partially a protective measure from Jing Yuan

Would be nice if Jing Yuan defends his decisions in any shape or form...

[tanithryudo]

> It's entirely possible that Dan Heng was hatched much more recently, like he's closer to 50yo than 200yo.

Eh, I guess there is room for that interpretation, because the game likes to keep most characters' age as vague and mysterious as possible. (And in the cases where they don't, it usually turns into a messy timeline problem; see Serval, Pela, Sushang)

But if Dan Heng is under 30 years old, then either Dan Feng was kept in jail for a longer time than we thought, or their time in between spent as an egg lasted for a looot of centuries.

> Would be nice if Jing Yuan defends his decisions in any shape or form

The whole conversation was weird. Like, I know his role was there to exposition the info the writers wanted to show. But the line about drugging baby Dan Heng seemed like a non-sequitor aimed at distracting his two companions (and the players) into dropping the current subject.

[cashew]

it usually turns into a messy timeline problem

Writers don't have an internal timeline at all confirmed.

if Dan Heng is under 30 years old

Dan Heng has to be at least 30 years old tho, since the exile of Lingsha's master happened 30 years ago. Even assuming she was processed immediately, there's still trial time and stuff.

either Dan Feng was kept in jail for a longer time than we thought

Taoran did say Dan Feng's trial took a very long time. Also DHIL personal story contains memories of Preceptors questioning him (Dan Feng) repeatedly. So probably the whole kept getting delayed or dragged out to buy the Preceptors more time with Dan Feng.

their time in between spent as an egg lasted for a looot of centuries

I think egg hatching might be shorter simply because we have that one quest where the Vidyadhara dates the same woman over the course of 4 cycles. If we assume the woman is 1000yo and each incarnation averages 300 years due to shitty luck or something, that still only leaves about 100 years to hatch 3 times, roughly 30 years hatching time.

On the other hand, we have Bailu, but her hatch time is probably not normal and can't really be used as a reference.

But the line about drugging baby Dan Heng seemed like a non-sequitor

I thought it's meant to let Lingsha know she doesn't have the whole story and she may not want to know the whole story because it's pretty ugly. A "you think your master was framed but she actually had a lot more agency than you think" kind of statement.

[tanithryudo]

> Dan Heng has to be at least 30 years old tho, since the exile of Lingsha's master happened 30 years ago.

Hm, well... Yunhua was exiled due to the growing Sanctus Medicus faction in the Alchemy Commission. This was a revitalization of an old and faded out cult worshipping the Abundance, and it was revitalized by Dan Shu after she turned to the Abundance after PTSD from the Third Abundance War.

The Third Abundance War has an actual date -- 8072 Star Calendar. Present day is 8100 (the Luofu crisis took place around March. The current wardance is taking place in August). That's 28 years in between. Maybe less, since it probably took Dan Shu some time to build her cult and political power, and Yunhua to notice and try to fight it.

But still, something like 26-27 can still be rounded to 30 for a round number. As the absolute minimum age Dan Heng could be, I guess.

> Even assuming she was processed immediately, there's still trial time and stuff.

Eh, but if we throw that in, his age can still be possibly in the 100-200s, depending on how the average trial time the trial took. That is, assuming the trial started over her dosing of Dan Heng, and then later ended with her loss after Dan Shu came into power.

> Taoran did say Dan Feng's trial took a very long time.

I think someone would've noted it if it took more than 500 years, lol. Also, if it took that long, he'd already be near the end of his natural lifespan. In which case, what is the point of forced molting? o_O

> I think egg hatching might be shorter simply because we have that one quest where the Vidyadhara dates the same woman over the course of 4 cycles.

Eh, that's just one person though. It seems egg development rates and post-hatching growth rates differ between person to person.

Like in Scalegorge Waterscape, there's at least one egg that belongs to one of Dan Feng's guards, who still clings to his/her old memories and hasn't hatched yet.

[cashew]

if we throw that in, his age can still be possibly in the 100-200s, depending on how the average trial time the trial

Trial time probably depends on the complexity of the case. Dan Feng's case probably took a long time because lots of people were involved and much deal trading was happening. Plus, it involves the top leadership of Vidyadhara who have some degree of autonomy, which means even more levels of negotiation. Meanwhile, use of illegal substances probably is far more straightforward and a much shorter trial.

he'd already be near the end of his natural lifespan. In which case, what is the point of forced molting?

Ending the Imbibitor Lunae line. I think the lineage is the actual issue that was discussed. Dan Feng was going to die, that was non-negotiable. But whether Imbibitor Lunae is allowed to continue was the real question. Ending IL means Luofu Vidyadhara would need to select a new 龙尊 to take over, which could result in a bloody internal succession battle that further diminish the population size. (They were ready to murder Bailu over this. Like murder-murder, not forced molting.) So there was likely real concern over whether the expediency of eliminating IL for good is worth the risk of succession conflict.

I mean I get that technically Dan Heng being exiled is not that much different from killing IL in terms of succession politicking, but having the guy alive still means, in the minds of the old guard, a chance of restoring the old line and thus tamp down on the ambitions of would be successors. The psychological effect of knowing "the rightful king" (as it were) is still out there is a pretty strong deterent.

there's at least one egg that belongs to one of Dan Feng's guards, who still clings to his/her old memories and hasn't hatched yet.

I mean fair, but if we assume IL's egg takes several hundred years to hatch, that raises a political question: what happens to the political leadership when IL is an egg? Like a few decades away, sure, you can recover political power from that. But 500 years? There's no way to have stable transition of power. The Vidyadhara society should by all rights be in complete shambles. I mean look at the current state of Luofu Vidyadhara after not having a leader for 700 years, they've split into 3 major factions that are ready to kill each other over the throne.

From just a practical standpoint, I don't think IL hatch speed can afford to take a long time. Based on the time it takes to solidify political control, I'd say 70 years tops.

[tanithryudo]

> Meanwhile, use of illegal substances probably is far more straightforward and a much shorter trial.

I dunno, if it was just that, just a dismissal from her job and maybe pulling her credentials would've been enough. Outright exile seems to indicate there was more going on.

Also, Lingsha says Yunhua was exiled due to being framed. Obviously, she's not referring to drugging Dan Heng, because Lingsha didn't even know about that incident. So the stuff she was being officially tried for was other stuff. May well have gotten political since it centered around the power balance of the Alchemy Commission.

> Ending IL means Luofu Vidyadhara would need to select a new 龙尊 to take over

Wut? What are you talking about?

If you are talking about the titular position of high elder, Dan Feng already named Bailu his successor. That had nothing to do with his sentencing of forced molting or when it was decided to be carried out.

I'm talking about the issue *WHEN* the forced molting took place, not the *WHY* he was sentenced. If they took 500 years to actually decide on the sentencing of forced molting, that's taking the hypothetical political trading to a completely absurd degree, and such a government should be completely incapable of doing anything important. If they decided on the sentencing after a few years or even a few decades (the max I could suspend disbelief for), that still means the forced molting should've been enforced 600+ years ago.

> what happens to the political leadership when IL is an egg?

Dunno, it's not like we have a concrete example. Maybe usually the high elder has a faster rebirth rate, and this time it was slowed because the inheritance was split between Dan Heng and Bailu. Maybe in future patches they'll tell us more.

[cashew]

if it was just that, just a dismissal from her job and maybe pulling her credentials would've been enough

According to the entry of the potion (前尘回梦针):该方有违持明风俗规制，若非为攸关一族存亡之事不可擅用。 违背持明族人意愿，哄骗、强迫其使用前尘回梦针，将触犯持明族规，受轮回之刑。

So by law, the sentence is forced molting. Exile is getting off easy.

Dan Feng already named Bailu his successor

We actually have no clue when he named her the successor. Like, did he know the dead abomination was going to turn into a viable Vidyadhara? How would he be sure of this? Since the process was experimental, what was he going to do if the egg turns out to be a dud?

I would assume he could only name her the successor after confirming the egg would hatch. That suggests he'd have to be alive for at least that long.

In the mean time, his trial still has to go on and there will still need to be debate over what to do with Imbibitor Lunae line. Even if we assume the succession has been named before arrest (which, again, sounds iffy due to not having any idea of whether the experiment would be a success), then preservation of IL would be even more problematic.

Imagine a king has a prince that should've been the rightful heir, but the king gets deposed and the ministers claim that actually his majesty named the princess the heir instead...there'll definitely be people who want to install the prince, simply because he's available. At that point, it'll be much more politically stable to kill the prince along with the king to eliminate succession arguments.

I'm talking about the issue WHEN the forced molting took place

I'm pointing out that even at the end of Dan Feng's lifespan, the question of death vs molting would still be relevant. You were saying that it wouldn't matter at that point, but I think it matters regardless of when the sentence was carried out.

As for the exact timing...

If they took 500 years to actually decide on the sentencing of forced molting, that's taking the hypothetical political trading to a completely absurd degree, and such a government should be completely incapable of doing anything important.

500 years may be excessive, but there are cases of criminal (murder) trials that go on for literally 60 years that still never get fully settled IRL, where our average life expectancy is only 84 years. In US alone, many inmates die of old age waiting for their trials to reach a conclusion. Political prisoners can go through easily 40 years of trials without results on the regular. I imagine a complicated case like Dan Feng's isn't resolved in one go, but rather goes through trial, retrial, appeal, etc.

I mean the guy is in prison and not at risk of escape or jailbreak. That gives bureaucrats all the time they want to litigate a satisfying result.

I think you'd be surprised how inefficient the criminal trial system can be while still having a functional government.

There's also the issue of whether the sentence will be carried out immediately. It's also possible the reason the process took a long time is that Ten-Lords decided on execution, but the preceptors appealed the decision, Jing Yuan steps in to ask for a stay of execution to debate the issue further, blah blah back and forth for a couple hundred years. This is pretty normal both IRL and in fiction.

Plus, even death sentences aren't immediate. Just because the sentence is finalized doesn't mean its carried out immediately. Over half of US death row inmates (aka prisoners who received death penalty) wait OVER 18 YEARS before the execution is carried out. A similar thing could happen to Dan Feng, except the wait is like 200 years instead of 18.

[tanithryudo]

> I would assume he could only name her the successor after confirming the egg would hatch.

I mean, we don't know Bailu's age either. We also don't know what happened after the monster was killed and somehow a viable egg came out of it.

But the common presumption was that once there was a viable Vidyadhara egg with (half of) the power of the high elder inheritance in it, it was a viable candidate for succession. *shrug*

> I'm pointing out that even at the end of Dan Feng's lifespan, the question of death vs molting would still be relevant.

I'm not talking about death vs molting at that point though. I'm talking about the point after they already sentenced him to molt and not death, and subsequently when that molting was carried out. Because if they dragged it on too long and past his natural lifespan, he's going to do the natural rebirth automatically. What's the point of forced molting if they wait til that point or after that happens? So of course this all needs to take place before the estimated end of his lifespan.

[cashew]

we don't know Bailu's age either

Would be funny if Bailu is technically older than Dan Heng... (Since we know she was given a medicine to suppress her aging, so her appearance doesn't reflect her age, even by Vidyadhara standards.)

presumption was that once there was a viable Vidyadhara egg with (half of) the power of the high elder inheritance in it, it was a viable candidate for succession.

I thought Dan Feng named her the successor? That implies he gave verbal/written indication. If her becoming the successor was automatic due to having powers, then Dan Feng had no real agency in making Bailu the successor, seeing as Dan Feng wasn't sure what was coming out of his experiment.

Because if they dragged it on too long and past his natural lifespan, he's going to do the natural rebirth automatically.

Sure, but we have no clue how much natural lifespan remained when Dan Feng was arrested. The only reason fandom thought he didn't have very long left was because of one folk song, which we know are not reliable accounts of anything.

If Dan Heng is only 30 years old, then Vidyadhara development is much faster than fans thought, making Dan Feng's age (based on appearance) on the young end during arrest. That means he'd have easily another 400-500 years to spend rotting in prison.

I don't think it's likely, but then again, I don't think miHoyo themselves know when any of this stuff happens either, so they just handwave away everything and end up with weird timescales.

[tanithryudo]

As far as I know, Bailu wasn't given meds to suppress her aging. She has a physical lock on her tail, but that's for suppressing her powers (the lightning part). And she was also given the memory potion, but it didn't do much for her / she didn't tell anyone about her dreams either.

> I thought Dan Feng named her the successor?

Sure, but there's a log of wiggle room to interpret when it happened, because it was all so vague and mysteriously stated.

Like, we don't know if she was an egg at the time, hatched, or some other weird state...

> If her becoming the successor was automatic due to having powers

No, it's not automatic. Dan Feng naming her successor was important, in terms of internal Vidyadhara tradition/law/whatever. That action has to be locked in, for her to have the current high elder position. It's not something anyone else other than Dan Feng can confer, and it was specifically Dan Feng who conferred it.

> If Dan Heng is only 30 years old, then Vidyadhara development is much faster than fans thought

Or has greater variation in growth rates per rebirth...

I mean, there was one readable who had a dude complaining about being defeated by a fellow Vidyadhara cloud knight trainee who only came up to his chest (so child-sized similar to Bailu), but was over 80 years old. But if Dan Heng is only in his 30s, he's definitely not child-sized.

There's also a kid-sized Vidyadhara on Herta's Space station, a fully accredited researcher and everything. But I find it hard to believe she's actually a kid (mentally), since I doubt the Xianzhou would've allowed actual minors (mentally) to go off-world by themselves without a chaperone.

Let's throw Taoran in there while we're at it... He presumably went through natural rebirth some time after Dan Feng's molting. But he now looks older than Dan Heng. *shrug*

> I don't think it's likely, but then again, I don't think miHoyo themselves know when any of this stuff happens either

Yes, I expect we will end up with self contradictory timeline in the end. Maybe it's best they stop trying to fill in the blanks. -_-

[cashew]

As far as I know, Bailu wasn't given meds to suppress her aging.

Hm...interesting. I guess that's more an implication due to that medication existing on the same item that contained the entry on the memory potion, but there's nothing explicit.

Dan Feng naming her successor was important, in terms of internal Vidyadhara tradition/law/whatever. That action has to be locked in, for her to have the current high elder position. It's not something anyone else other than Dan Feng can confer, and it was specifically Dan Feng who conferred it.

Yeah, so the most likely time this happened must have been while he was in jail, as I mentioned it doesn't make sense to name his experiment the successor before he can confirm it was a success.

Based on common sense, someone would have to inform him that his abomination dragon turned into an egg and it shows signs of becoming a viable Vidyadhara or that Bailu already hatched to confirm the success of his experiment. At which point Dan Feng can name her the successor since he's...well, in jail. But that's reasonable and logical, so miHoyo probably will write something completely different.

Let's throw Taoran in there while we're at it... He presumably went through natural rebirth some time after Dan Feng's molting. But he now looks older than Dan Heng.

Very fair point. Maybe traveling on the Express stunted Dan Heng's growth.

Or maybe the reality is miHoyo sucks at writing.

Yes, I expect we will end up with self contradictory timeline in the end. Maybe it's best they stop trying to fill in the blanks. -_-

This is my constant ambivalence when it comes to Xianzhou. Lore-wise it's the most interesting, but the more story happens there the worse the story gets.