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Finally finished patch 2.4 main story...
If you want detailed responses, see previous two posts.
Specific to Part 9:
A slightly interesting moment is the contrast between 雪衣's situation juxtaposed to 丹恒's situation in terms of identity. The game writing just kind of leaves it there, but in the hands of better writer, there's a lot of room to explore what makes up the identity of a person. Are memories enough? Imagine a deeper delve into 雪衣's philosophy of "my memories are intact, therefore I am the same person" contrasted against Dan Heng's philosophy of "I don't care if I inherited memories, I'm still my own person, I'm different from that guy!" I feel like having these two hash out their differing world views (doesn't have to be a fight, having small talk over tea would be enough), would add a lot to both characters.
Meanwhile, am sooooooooo getting tired of edgy boy 貘泽. The only thing remotely interesting is his point about "I have responsibilities for which I'm ready to die" versus 丹恒's "I have friends who are waiting for me so I need to live". I really wanted that conversation to go on a little longer, have the two guys blow up at each other a bit, and then 寒鸦 could jump in and be like "OK, shut up, I'm the commanding officer here, if anyone's dying it's me."
Further getting the sense that each ship in the Xianzhou Alliance functions as an autonomously governed region, much like feudal states. Technically the ships are supposed to be helping each other and coordinating, but it sounds more like everyone kind of have their own political priorities. Also, it sounds like 曜青 is predominantly Foxian, seeing as Hoolay commented his main grudge is actually with 曜青, not Xianzhou at large. Plus threats about how "relations between 曜青 and 罗浮 might be sundered", which implies there's some kind of treaty binding the ships together politically. (And wasn't 白珩 also from 曜青? It's beginning to sound like 曜青 is the de facto homeland for Foxians in the Alliance.)
Finally, regarding some people thinking the generals were being "stupid"...I think this is a case of fans being bad at clarifying bad plotting vs bad execution (of which HSR has both), and not being clear when they're bitching because they're just responding emotionally to the story sucking.
In summary:
I maintain that this arc is set up around the politics of "some politicians hate Jing Yuan so now we have this mess". I get that it's meant to introduce new characters, but if that's the only drive, they really should've just have the story take place on another ship.
One of the main problems with HSR writers is the inability to separate writer knowledge from character knowledge: Jing Yuan's reaction makes no sense when placed into the context of him knowing he's being targeted politically. Why write the plot such that he places himself into a vulnerable position constantly? Even in a "using himself as the bait" trope, this is really poor writing. (Plus, using himself as bait also does not inspire "genius tactician" vibes...)
Feixiao is... I want to like her, but she's just a collection of tropes at the moment. Gimme more Jingliu. She's both metaphorically and literally cooler.
Yunli is awesome. I like her. I will not hear another bad word against this girl.
Yanqing continues to be feckless and annoying.
The entire jail break stuff is just...an excuse to get the party into a new map. It's not very good. Also what is even the point of the super dramatic cutscene with 丹恒 throwing his spear and then we fade to black?
Too much over explaining banal details, not enough showing, and not enough clarification of details that actually matter. Like, age is a big fucking deal in terms of understanding character, especially in East Asian cultures. 辈分 is huge in terms of social dynamics and relationships. Why is the game so reluctant to give this information?
I really, really, really need one of the Xianzhou Alliance officers at some point say the line "宁仙舟人负我，毋我负仙舟人". This is such a key part of the (good guy) officers' mentality and I'd like to see it explored by having it come up against outsiders who believe self preservation is of the utmost importance. Especially since I think this is what's causing the clash between the other long lived species and Vidyadhara. But also the line is just cool, so I wanna hear the voice actors say it.
Maybe I'm reading the situation wrong, but I feel like Jiaoqiu is still, hm..., what's the word for 顾全大局? He has his selfish reasons for doing stuff, but when it came down the wire, he seemed to pick the selfless option. But his voice actor sucks, and combined with the a lot of deliberately vague lines, it's like...you can read him as a traitor or read him as someone who's being strategic. Both seem pretty valid at the moment. We'll have to see how later patches play out.
Now...where do I find the sidequest cutscenes again?
no subject
Eh, but these two don't conflict though? Xueyi has the entire *fully intact memories* of her original self, uploaded to digital form and then downloaded to her puppet. Vidyadhara have their memories wiped during rebirth, and Dan Heng only has bits and pieces of his previous incarnation's memories, and some of them only unlocked recently. Similarly, Bailu has a few fragmented dreams from her previous incarnation as Baiheng, but no one thinks of them as the same person.
> Moze
Moze didn't strike me as the kind of guy who is ready to die though? I mean, of the 3 of them in the party, he was the one who ran away from the Hoolay fight.
> they really should've just have the story take place on another ship.
Haha, that would require the design team to create enough maps for a new planet. That only happens once a year. Now, we'd all like Hoyo to use some of their gatcha earned money to do actually do this. But the chances they'll actually make 2 worlds per year is...eh, not likely.
> Feixiao
We'll see more of her next update, which is coming up on tomorrow (Monday afternoon US time, Tuesday morning CN time). Not sure how long we'll start seeing playthroughs online, but shouldn't be too long.
> Yanqing
I will be pulling the gatcha tomorrow. So my liking of him is going to be contingent on my pull results. Don't screw this up, YQ. (And god I hope I haven't jinxed myself...-_-)
> having it come up against outsiders who believe self preservation i
LOL, I read this as "against outsiders who believe in Preservation", and went, but the IPC are supposed go with the motto of "All for the Amber Lord!"...Whether or not they actually are religious over Qlipoth, they at least have to buy into the IPC's corporate juggernaut.
> Jiaoqiu
The problem with him is that you see the inner monologue of him cold sweating and desperately trying to come up with ideas. That just ruins the strategic image and makes him seem... not special enough for a playable character rather than just a named NPC, if you get what I mean.
no subject
雪衣 made a comment about how the mechanical bird's system can't hold all her memories, but 寒鸦 still greets her as if she's the same person, suggesting that 雪衣 doesn't need her full set of memories to consider herself as having the same identity.
Meanwhile, 丹恒 preserved more memories from a past incarnation than most Vidyadhara thanks to an incomplete reincarnation process. And his response seems to suggest that even if he had all the memories, he'd still see himself as a separate person, since he's adamant that he's does not bear the guilt of his predecessor even after regaining his memories.
Fundamentally, there's a philosophical question of whether having the memories is enough to be the same person. Does being present at the moment of the experience matter to the shaping of an identity or is the memory all there is? I think 雪衣 and 丹恒 represent the two ends of the spectrum.
貊泽 specifically said he ran off because he has obligations that does not allow him to casually throw his life away in a fight he can't win, but also that said obligations involved making sure Hoolay stays trapped in the prison, even if it means dying together. He even said he was ready to carry out his mission to the death, and may need 丹恒 et al. to be part of the sacrificial play, at which point 丹恒 basically said, sorry, I'm not dying in here with you. So I'd say 貊泽 very much is ready to give up his life for his duty.
Yeah, speaks to poor planning. Instead of the Penacony nonsense, they could've released a new Xianzhou ship instead... It's like they don't understand how storytelling works.
Yeah, I know. I'm not looking forward to it. I don't think she's going to be very interesting based on the trailer.
Game mechanics affect not at all my liking of a character... :p
It certainly doesn't speak well to his ability to plan under pressure. But I guess we can't have two guys who are genius strategist type. Although I suspect this is more a case of the worf effect, where the writers think that by showing the "smart" characters even getting distressed by Hoolay, this will build up hype for how powerful Hoolay is, but all it serves to do is make 椒丘 look less competent.
(To be completely fair, 诸葛亮 also had a couple of cold sweat moments, but the better writer knew to reveal the cold sweats after the character successfully outsmarted his opponent. 周瑜's sword dance being a pretty famous moment where 诸葛亮 definitely thought he was going to die and had to grit his teeth throughout.)
no subject
First of all, in this case, Xueyi has continuance of consciousness and was the active role in the transfer of her consciousness.
Secondly, she also said:
"Xueyi (cycrane version): Just don't let me be d-d-damaged again... I'll lose my m-m-memories."
So whatever she means by the cycrane can't "hold all of me", it may not necessarily be referring to just memories.
I mean, the first thing she did after revealing herself was to tell our party exactly what happened to their group when they got to Hoolay. She also clearly recognized our entire party, and the layout of the Shackling Prison (since she had to fly out to deliver the news of the jailbreak) which was confirmed by Moze to be a complex maze. She certainly doesn't seem like someone who is missing any important memories.
As for Hanya, she's used to her sister uploading to all sorts of puppet bodies each time the previous one breaks. So of course her first impression isn't going to be that this time is all that different.
> 丹恒 preserved more memories from a past incarnation than most Vidyadhara thanks to an incomplete reincarnation process
More than the blank slate of most Vidyadhara is far from the same thing as Xueyi. It's like saying he has 1% of memories compared to normal Vidyadhara's 0%, and thus comparable to Xueyi's 100% memories.
> And his response seems to suggest that even if he had all the memories, he'd still see himself as a separate person, since he's adamant that he's does not bear the guilt of his predecessor even after regaining his memories.
I don't recall when he has ever said or implied that.
And also, because that's what the Vidyadhara culture standards also say about rebirth? Like, why should he feel it's right to be held by some arbitrary non-Vidyadhara standards when it comes to the rebirth?
> philosophical question of whether having the memories is enough to be the same person
It's also a question whose answers has been "defined" on the cultural and legal side by the society already. For Vidyadhara, the answer is obviously no. For the Xianzhou natives, at the least 100% memory retention does mean you're the same person.
> Instead of the Penacony nonsense
Uh... Penacony is much more popular and well received than Xianzhou in both CN and global. For that matter, the Xianzhou is probably at the bottom of the list for a lot of people in CN and global.
> Jiaoqiu
There is zero resemblance with Zhuge Liang aside from the fan. None.
There are plenty of other strategist people in ROTK or outside for him to be based off of.
But nobody cares at this point because he's so NPC-ish.
no subject
Re: 雪衣 vs 丹恒
I feel like you're misunderstanding my point. It's not a matter of comparability. It's a matter of outlook. 雪衣's philosophy is that her memories, whether fully intact or not, is enough for her to consider herself the same person. 寒鸦 treating her sister as the same person despite hardware changes (and malfunction) is a reflection of 雪衣's world view. 丹恒's continued reiteration that he is not 丹枫 is an expression of his world view.
Neither world view is wrong, neither is right. Of course how they (the characters) arrive at the answer regarding their identity is contingent on their personal experiences and cultural outlook. That's the whole point of exploring the philosophical divide.
The whole argument regarding the percentage of memories retained is completely off base and misunderstands how memory works. The argument you put forth presumes humans remember every little thing that happened in our lives like a computer, when the human brain actually forgets 80‐90% of our daily activities. Our memories are fragments of our lives, and the majority of the working memory is spent on storing mundane information like language, muscle control, self-care skills, etc., and not on the details of events. That doesn't mean we aren't shaped by the events that we don't remember nonetheless.
丹恒 clearly remembers many things he rightfully shouldn't know, such as appropriate salutation and correct ways of address. He shows no clumsiness when switching to Luofu coded speech patterns. He acts in a way that's indistinguishable from Luofu natives; that's a level of comfort that can only be gained from personal familiarity, not something learned from a book. He also fights in the exact same way as 丹枫 and emotes in a similar manner. This suggests far, far more memory recovery than 1%.
If a person lost their long term memory, but they continue to speak with the same mannerisms, walk with the same gait, react in the same way to others...has that person's identity changed? That's the philosophical question posed by the thought experiment of reincarnation and cyborg brains literary trope.
Traditionally, 雪衣's situation is challenged thusly: if a robot gained 100% of your brain patterns, does that robot become you? Interestingly, the usual literary answer to that question is no, despite have an identical copy of the brain, the robot identity is still a separate entity. While in HSR, 雪衣's answer is the opposite.
Similarly, 丹恒's situation is usually presented in literature as: if a soul is reincarnated (or exists in a parallel universe), can they still claim the same identity despite having very different life experiences? The traditional answer to that is usually yes, hence the concept of soul mates. But HSR also chose to give the opposite answer.
And that's why it would have been interesting for 丹恒 and 雪衣 have a chance to share their world views. This would show us their reasoning (which subverts the usual literary development) as well as help flesh out the characters.
So? Harry Potter is also immensely popular, it's still transphobic trash. When did popularity became a measure of quality?
Again, so what? I'm talking about the relevance of showing a supposedly strategic person having cold sweats under pressure. That element alone is not enough to dismiss a character as "not strategic". My point is that it's the execution of the story element that matters, not the content.
no subject
And if we look at it from that point of view, the society they are a part of has posed the answer to that question. The Vidyadhara have one POV, because rebirth is something central to their biology and society. Is the guy who keeps falling for the same woman still the same person each life despite having no conscious memories of his past lives? He doesn't think so, by the standards and definition of Vidyadhara society. Does his many-times-ex-girlfriend? She may or may not have a different answer.
Xueyi's answer to this question is also mired in her being a native Xianzhou species, and the specific way their society system works with regards to the death and the afterlife. Because when the proper steps to avoid mara onset is taken, they're digitally uploaded. Because they take the idea of immortality (biological or otherwise) for practically granted. We have run missions to the Dept of Divination to call up "ghosts" of the dead to answer somewhat frivolous questions, as if the people in question never died.
This is a difference between the Xianzhou native POV vs the Vidyadhara POV, which is in both cases rooted in their specific biological and cultural backgrounds. I don't think Dan Heng would find the Xianzhou POV to be a big surprise. He's seen it clashing up close long enough during his childhood jail sentence.
> transphobic trash
Wut? There was trans in HP?
> supposedly strategic person
He hasn't really shown himself to be very strategic even outside the main plot. Honestly, the "strategic" title was more imposed on him by people who formed their impressions solely based on his fan design, before the patch came out. In story, his role to Feixiao is more like private doctor than military strategist.
no subject
As I've mentioned in the original post, this disagreement is likely the source of tension. Given the prominence of Vidyadhara culture clash being a main precipitation for both the current and previous political mess, it would behoove the story to actually explore it.
As you've mentioned before, this philosophical aspect is poorly integrated into the main story. Having named major characters engage in dialogue over the subject matter would much better situate the philosophical differences. Obviously, the story as is can't have 丹恒 and 雪衣 navel gaze on the subject whilst in the middle of a chase scene, but I also highly doubt the writers would use these characters as a chance to clarify the framework of Luofu world building. I'm saying that getting 丹恒 and 雪衣's personal views would help flesh out their character. It would be much better structurally to reveal the philosophical tensions between Luofu's subcultures via major characters than via sidequests involving NPCs.
Again, this is for the benefit of the players/viewers. We shouldn't be trying to piece together 丹恒's ideological outlook from sidequests. When I say fleshing out the characters, that's in reference to the audience's understanding. A character is only as fleshed out as they are presented to the audience. There isn't some fully realized 丹恒 person existing in the ether of HSR. There is only what the HSR text chooses to show us, and the best way to show us 丹恒's thoughts is giving him an in story reason to verbalize said thoughts.
Tonks was widely interpreted as gender fluid (a subset of trans) and became heteronormalized in the end. Just Google "transphobia Harry Potter" if you want an exhaustive list. This article covers some major arguments.
He's also introduced as Feixiao's strategic advisor... The title is not completely without textual support, the writing is just terrible.