Finally finished patch 2.4 main story...

[cashew]

If you want detailed responses, see previous two posts.

Specific to Part 9:

A slightly interesting moment is the contrast between 雪衣's situation juxtaposed to 丹恒's situation in terms of identity. The game writing just kind of leaves it there, but in the hands of better writer, there's a lot of room to explore what makes up the identity of a person. Are memories enough? Imagine a deeper delve into 雪衣's philosophy of "my memories are intact, therefore I am the same person" contrasted against Dan Heng's philosophy of "I don't care if I inherited memories, I'm still my own person, I'm different from that guy!" I feel like having these two hash out their differing world views (doesn't have to be a fight, having small talk over tea would be enough), would add a lot to both characters.

Meanwhile, am sooooooooo getting tired of edgy boy 貘泽. The only thing remotely interesting is his point about "I have responsibilities for which I'm ready to die" versus 丹恒's "I have friends who are waiting for me so I need to live". I really wanted that conversation to go on a little longer, have the two guys blow up at each other a bit, and then 寒鸦 could jump in and be like "OK, shut up, I'm the commanding officer here, if anyone's dying it's me."

Further getting the sense that each ship in the Xianzhou Alliance functions as an autonomously governed region, much like feudal states. Technically the ships are supposed to be helping each other and coordinating, but it sounds more like everyone kind of have their own political priorities. Also, it sounds like 曜青 is predominantly Foxian, seeing as Hoolay commented his main grudge is actually with 曜青, not Xianzhou at large. Plus threats about how "relations between 曜青 and 罗浮 might be sundered", which implies there's some kind of treaty binding the ships together politically. (And wasn't 白珩 also from 曜青? It's beginning to sound like 曜青 is the de facto homeland for Foxians in the Alliance.)

Finally, regarding some people thinking the generals were being "stupid"...I think this is a case of fans being bad at clarifying bad plotting vs bad execution (of which HSR has both), and not being clear when they're bitching because they're just responding emotionally to the story sucking.

---

In summary:

• I maintain that this arc is set up around the politics of "some politicians hate Jing Yuan so now we have this mess". I get that it's meant to introduce new characters, but if that's the only drive, they really should've just have the story take place on another ship.

• One of the main problems with HSR writers is the inability to separate writer knowledge from character knowledge: Jing Yuan's reaction makes no sense when placed into the context of him knowing he's being targeted politically. Why write the plot such that he places himself into a vulnerable position constantly? Even in a "using himself as the bait" trope, this is really poor writing. (Plus, using himself as bait also does not inspire "genius tactician" vibes...)

• Feixiao is... I want to like her, but she's just a collection of tropes at the moment. Gimme more Jingliu. She's both metaphorically and literally cooler.

• Yunli is awesome. I like her. I will not hear another bad word against this girl.

• Yanqing continues to be feckless and annoying.

• The entire jail break stuff is just...an excuse to get the party into a new map. It's not very good. Also what is even the point of the super dramatic cutscene with 丹恒 throwing his spear and then we fade to black?

• Too much over explaining banal details, not enough showing, and not enough clarification of details that actually matter. Like, age is a big fucking deal in terms of understanding character, especially in East Asian cultures. 辈分 is huge in terms of social dynamics and relationships. Why is the game so reluctant to give this information?

• I really, really, really need one of the Xianzhou Alliance officers at some point say the line "宁仙舟人负我，毋我负仙舟人". This is such a key part of the (good guy) officers' mentality and I'd like to see it explored by having it come up against outsiders who believe self preservation is of the utmost importance. Especially since I think this is what's causing the clash between the other long lived species and Vidyadhara. But also the line is just cool, so I wanna hear the voice actors say it.

• Maybe I'm reading the situation wrong, but I feel like Jiaoqiu is still, hm..., what's the word for 顾全大局? He has his selfish reasons for doing stuff, but when it came down the wire, he seemed to pick the selfless option. But his voice actor sucks, and combined with the a lot of deliberately vague lines, it's like...you can read him as a traitor or read him as someone who's being strategic. Both seem pretty valid at the moment. We'll have to see how later patches play out.

Now...where do I find the sidequest cutscenes again?

Comments

[cashew]

Re: 雪衣 vs 丹恒

I feel like you're misunderstanding my point. It's not a matter of comparability. It's a matter of outlook. 雪衣's philosophy is that her memories, whether fully intact or not, is enough for her to consider herself the same person. 寒鸦 treating her sister as the same person despite hardware changes (and malfunction) is a reflection of 雪衣's world view. 丹恒's continued reiteration that he is not 丹枫 is an expression of his world view.

Neither world view is wrong, neither is right. Of course how they (the characters) arrive at the answer regarding their identity is contingent on their personal experiences and cultural outlook. That's the whole point of exploring the philosophical divide.

The whole argument regarding the percentage of memories retained is completely off base and misunderstands how memory works. The argument you put forth presumes humans remember every little thing that happened in our lives like a computer, when the human brain actually forgets 80‐90% of our daily activities. Our memories are fragments of our lives, and the majority of the working memory is spent on storing mundane information like language, muscle control, self-care skills, etc., and not on the details of events. That doesn't mean we aren't shaped by the events that we don't remember nonetheless.

丹恒 clearly remembers many things he rightfully shouldn't know, such as appropriate salutation and correct ways of address. He shows no clumsiness when switching to Luofu coded speech patterns. He acts in a way that's indistinguishable from Luofu natives; that's a level of comfort that can only be gained from personal familiarity, not something learned from a book. He also fights in the exact same way as 丹枫 and emotes in a similar manner. This suggests far, far more memory recovery than 1%.

If a person lost their long term memory, but they continue to speak with the same mannerisms, walk with the same gait, react in the same way to others...has that person's identity changed? That's the philosophical question posed by the thought experiment of reincarnation and cyborg brains literary trope.

Traditionally, 雪衣's situation is challenged thusly: if a robot gained 100% of your brain patterns, does that robot become you? Interestingly, the usual literary answer to that question is no, despite have an identical copy of the brain, the robot identity is still a separate entity. While in HSR, 雪衣's answer is the opposite.

Similarly, 丹恒's situation is usually presented in literature as: if a soul is reincarnated (or exists in a parallel universe), can they still claim the same identity despite having very different life experiences? The traditional answer to that is usually yes, hence the concept of soul mates. But HSR also chose to give the opposite answer.

And that's why it would have been interesting for 丹恒 and 雪衣 have a chance to share their world views. This would show us their reasoning (which subverts the usual literary development) as well as help flesh out the characters.

Penacony is much more popular and well received than Xianzhou

So? Harry Potter is also immensely popular, it's still transphobic trash. When did popularity became a measure of quality?

There is zero resemblance with Zhuge Liang aside from the fan.

Again, so what? I'm talking about the relevance of showing a supposedly strategic person having cold sweats under pressure. That element alone is not enough to dismiss a character as "not strategic". My point is that it's the execution of the story element that matters, not the content.

[tanithryudo]

> If a person lost their long term memory, but they continue to speak with the same mannerisms, walk with the same gait, react in the same way to others...has that person's identity changed?

And if we look at it from that point of view, the society they are a part of has posed the answer to that question. The Vidyadhara have one POV, because rebirth is something central to their biology and society. Is the guy who keeps falling for the same woman still the same person each life despite having no conscious memories of his past lives? He doesn't think so, by the standards and definition of Vidyadhara society. Does his many-times-ex-girlfriend? She may or may not have a different answer.

Xueyi's answer to this question is also mired in her being a native Xianzhou species, and the specific way their society system works with regards to the death and the afterlife. Because when the proper steps to avoid mara onset is taken, they're digitally uploaded. Because they take the idea of immortality (biological or otherwise) for practically granted. We have run missions to the Dept of Divination to call up "ghosts" of the dead to answer somewhat frivolous questions, as if the people in question never died.

This is a difference between the Xianzhou native POV vs the Vidyadhara POV, which is in both cases rooted in their specific biological and cultural backgrounds. I don't think Dan Heng would find the Xianzhou POV to be a big surprise. He's seen it clashing up close long enough during his childhood jail sentence.

> transphobic trash

Wut? There was trans in HP?

> supposedly strategic person

He hasn't really shown himself to be very strategic even outside the main plot. Honestly, the "strategic" title was more imposed on him by people who formed their impressions solely based on his fan design, before the patch came out. In story, his role to Feixiao is more like private doctor than military strategist.

[cashew]

This is a difference between the Xianzhou native POV vs the Vidyadhara POV, which is in both cases rooted in their specific biological and cultural backgrounds.

As I've mentioned in the original post, this disagreement is likely the source of tension. Given the prominence of Vidyadhara culture clash being a main precipitation for both the current and previous political mess, it would behoove the story to actually explore it.

the society they are a part of has posed the answer to that question.

As you've mentioned before, this philosophical aspect is poorly integrated into the main story. Having named major characters engage in dialogue over the subject matter would much better situate the philosophical differences. Obviously, the story as is can't have 丹恒 and 雪衣 navel gaze on the subject whilst in the middle of a chase scene, but I also highly doubt the writers would use these characters as a chance to clarify the framework of Luofu world building. I'm saying that getting 丹恒 and 雪衣's personal views would help flesh out their character. It would be much better structurally to reveal the philosophical tensions between Luofu's subcultures via major characters than via sidequests involving NPCs.

I don't think Dan Heng would find the Xianzhou POV to be a big surprise.

Again, this is for the benefit of the players/viewers. We shouldn't be trying to piece together 丹恒's ideological outlook from sidequests. When I say fleshing out the characters, that's in reference to the audience's understanding. A character is only as fleshed out as they are presented to the audience. There isn't some fully realized 丹恒 person existing in the ether of HSR. There is only what the HSR text chooses to show us, and the best way to show us 丹恒's thoughts is giving him an in story reason to verbalize said thoughts.

There was trans in HP?

Tonks was widely interpreted as gender fluid (a subset of trans) and became heteronormalized in the end. Just Google "transphobia Harry Potter" if you want an exhaustive list. This article covers some major arguments.

the "strategic" title was more imposed on him by people who formed their impressions solely based on his fan design

He's also introduced as Feixiao's strategic advisor... The title is not completely without textual support, the writing is just terrible.