Patch 2.4 Reactions - WIP
Tuesday, August 6th, 2024 19:28![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cashewI'm watching cut-scenes and figured I'd jot down some reactions as I go before I forget stuff.
彦卿 still annoying me, hope he gets better, but his handling of the surprise attack is terrible. Given he's second-in-command, he should have either taken control as the commanding officer or delegate to the local Cloud Knights and focused on getting the guests to go meet up with the general. Unlike the situation when 景元 came to the rescue, where it was necessary to keep the Cloud Knights' involvement on the down low, if 彦卿 was going to charge in himself, he should have mobilized far more bodies and immediately taken control of the situation and shut down all the exits. Instead, he just charged into the fray without making sure the exits were closed off first.
Next, after the fight, the party witnesses the resulting bureaucratic mess (which is being enforced by Cloud Knights). Here, 彦卿 could've stepped in and directed the IPC worker to get their paper work done or told the IPC worker due to the heightened security, they need to be redirected to another place for processing. Instead, he left things "as is" because it's "complicated"... Again, as the second-in-command, he could have done much, much better here.
Third, the biggest mistake the kid makes is to completely miss how sketchy 路君's explanation is with respect to violating the prisoner transfer protocols. 朱明's diplomatic envoy ship comes along, saves the IPC ship, then proceeds to, this bears repeating, go against prisoner transfer protocol... This should have been a huge warning flag. These are military protocols, you can't just override them because of convenience! Anyone who does this is immediately suspicious. The fact that 彦卿 just accepted the flimsy excuse rather than have MPs arrest the guy for, again, violating military protocol is... Ugh.
As far as I can tell, the Cloud Knights are not a civilian organization. They are a military organization, thus they run on strict military regulation, which is not easily "over-ridden" by a higher officer. Now it's unclear if 路君 was the one who allowed the diplomatic envoy ship to dock whilst the ship is holding prisoners or if he was trying to get the captain in charge off. Either way, it's overstepping his rank and it's shocking that 彦卿 just...walked away. WTF? Is he seriously so distracted by his lost sword he's completely ignoring the obvious conspiracy in front of him?
And on that subject of 朱明 sending diplomatic envoy: so, I don't know how the English translated this, but the Chinese called it "使节舰", which implies the ships carrying people from other ships in the Xianzhou fleet are treated as "international" travel. Again, this makes sense if we conceptualize each ship as a state in the Xianzhou alliance a la the Zhou dynasty. However, there's a little bit of confusion with respect to how power hierarchy works in the alliance, as it seems like the six departments (六司) is universal across the Xianzhou fleet. But it's unclear how the Cloud Knight's chain of command is structured across ships. The amount of autonomy each ship has from another ship in the fleet is also still vague AF. So what I'm saying is there's more questions than answers regarding the world building of Xianzhou society.
Wait, Yunli is older than Yanqing?! Ahahahahah!
Anyway, so I actually quite like Yunli. She made a good point about her not "stealing" the sword...she took it by force instead. At least call her a robber instead of a thief! ROFL I'm amused at Jing Yuan letting the situation run a bit first before smacking down Yanqing for failing to realize he's in diplomatic situation and should've handled it with a little more care.
Interesting lore bit about Huaiyan, seems like he took up the General position on and off, which is what kept the professional jealousy at bay. Also liked the pointed comment about Jing Yuan having a bunch of jealous people eyeing his position and are waiting for him to fuck up as an excuse to get rid of him. My only problem with this is that it makes it sound like 帝弓司天将 is civil officer position, which raises the question how military officers are able to also serve as civil officers. On top of that, it sounds like the 6 generals from each ship are still under the direct order of the marshal. So even though there's technically 7 天将, six are serving under the seventh. If there's going to be hierarchical difference between them, I feel like the marshal should have gotten a different title.
So there's also the complication that Dan Heng revealed about the practice of sending personnel from other ships to serve as department heads. Instead of working up the ladder, apparently there's a lot of cross-ship departmental transfers in high ranking positions, including the head of the department. This suggests 六司 functions far more like an intrastate institution. Between this and calling the vessels from other ships a "diplomatic envoy", we're getting conflicting information on the institutional structure. Of course, there's also the chance that miHoyo has no fucking clue what they're doing, so they just throw in whatever sounds cool and fuck the world building.
In terms of details, I noticed that Luofu born Yanqing and Dan Heng saluted Huaiyan, while Yaoqing's Jiaoqiu and Moze just stood there when they formally greeted (拜见) the two generals. (Also can I just say that this is immensely difficult in English when the Chinese separate the military commander "将军" and the civil officer "天将"?) I mean, I get that Yunli's thing was to establish that each ship has different social ritual practices (I have no idea how to translate 礼仪), but surely there's some kind of ritualistic bowing involved when meeting up with a higher ranking person?
Linguistic detail, Jiaoqiu referred to Feixiao as 敝上, which is a super archaic way of saying master. This is immensely weird since Yaoqing is supposed to be far more, uh, I guess the best way is to say "Westernized" due to being a majority Foxian society with shorter lifespans and interacting more with IPC and outside forces, therefore is more culturally forward-looking than the more culturally archaic Luofu. So like...uh... What the hell is going on?
Also, what the hell is going on with Moze? For a guy that's supposed to walk the shadows, he's very eye-grabby and out in the open. I mean, I guess he had to at least show his face to the resident general to avoid a diplomatic incident...except for how it's not an interstate dynamic and...ugh. Whatever.
Having Dan Heng info dump on the party was really awkward and bad writing. As was the complete misuse of 阴阳怪气, which is an adjective, not a verb, WTF writers? But I see the canine people are all very loyal to one another, which kills any hope of seeing the two strategists testing each other out. Gah.
One last thing, 怀炎 called Yunli his 徒孙, suggesting that she's not his grandaughter. Instead, she studied under his disciple at some point and he's taking over her training now.
Negotiation is contrived, but whatever. The stupid thing is that 彦卿 apparently didn't even know Luofu's laws well enough to tell the IPC guy to back off on the shipment check. Which only makes 灵砂 kind of badass in that she apparently is a troll and calmly smacked down the IPC lackey. Objectively, this shouldn't even have been an issue, but as the writing shows, she at least knows how to work the laws in her favor, so she's at the very least more politically savvy than 彦卿, which to be fair is not a very high bar to cross at this point.
Not very fond of her character design, but maybe she'll show some more bite in later scenes.
That's about all the thoughts I have for this part.
So, got to meet 飞霄 in this part. Ugh. Feels a bit like 镜流 redux, in the sense that 飞霄 has some kind of uncurable illness (but not mara) and she knows she has limited time to do the things she want to do. Oh and she has to impart some deep sword lessons to the youngster. I'd rather we get more 镜流 in that case.
Interesting that 灵砂 is originally a Luofu resident and only left the place for 30 years. Makes sense why she'd get sent back to take over as the head as it sounds like she actually has experience working in Luofu. So at least it's not completely random assignments. Also sounds like 丹鼎司 and Cloud Knights have some bureaucratic...er, conflicts with each other. Like, there seems to be some kind of political rivalry over policy decisions and stuff, not to mention the 持明 of Luofu have been turning 丹鼎司 into a division mostly under their control. Which suggests maaaaaybe 800 years ago 丹枫 might have also been working in 丹鼎司 (on top of his political machinations within 持明 society). At least it's not completely out of the realm of possibility.
What I'm saying is I want more hurt/comfort from 景元x丹枫 stuff.
Yanqing still managed to annoy me and I really wanted to see Yunli kick his ass.
TBC...
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no subject
Date: 2024-08-08 04:47 (UTC)It's things like these that make people actually pause and wonder if the Zhuming actually does have legal allowance for someone to "seize" weapons on the battlefield and claim ownership, even if they belong to still living allies rather than the enemy, or if Yunli was just making that up.
Despite those differences though, yeah, it seems like the 六司 regularly does personnel transfers between ships. Fu Xuan originally came from the Yuque, for example. So they're like an...interstate organization? Maybe we can liken the ships to the US states of the pre-Civil War USA and the 六司 to departments in the federal government?
As for "diplomatic envoy"... My interpretation is that the title was only used because it was carrying an Arbiter-General (天将), rather than any ship from one Xianzhou visiting another would be considered a diplomatic rep. In other words, the Arbiter-General in this case is sort of like a (sub-)head of state. So any transport vessel they are on is considered a diplomatic courier, maybe? And then, the Generals themselves could be members of heads of a department of the 六司 (eg. 云骑将军), but they don't necessarily *have to be*. So it's 2 systems that can intersect, but one isn't a subset of the other.
Dan Heng being the infodump source makes it more and more looking like he has more than just a little memories from Dan Feng, honestly...
no subject
Date: 2024-08-08 06:42 (UTC)I think regardless of whether Yunli is BS-ing the practice of seizing weapons, her point that the verb should've been 抢 (rob) not 偷 (steal) is on point and seems to be her actual hangup. Her hangup is Yangqing calling her a thief is an insult when she robbed by force. Which seems to me is probably meant to show that Zhuming is actually a bit less "civilized" and a bit more "strong rule the weak" type of society, and less about the actual laws/legality of the situation.
Yah, my point is that a "diplomat" refers to head of state (or ambassador) from a different country. A higher ranked officer crossing provincial/prefecture lines are not refered to as "diplomats". They'd be called something like 钦差 or 御史.
I'm wondering if they're similar to modern Interpol and such supra-national organizations. But then in the modern system, these organizations don't deal with local politics, which 六司 is deeply involved in. Even in the USA example, the federal government still has to fight with the local government for jurisdiction. Maybe we can look to Spain's more devolved government as an example? But again, this raises the question of a) where is the local government system if the 六司 is equivalent to a federal organization and b) why is the federal organization so involved in the local politics? (I suspect the answer is because miHoyo writers didn't think about any of this and are just pulling words out of their ass.)
Hm... Do we have evidence of any of the 天将 not being a head of the 六司? It seems like being the head of a department is the pre-requisite.
...something just occured to me, 景元 was promoted to 将军 and 天将 simultaneously. From what I've seen so far, this actually seems to be a bit of a rare situation, as one is usually promoted first the head of a department then considered as second-in-line for the 天将 position. 怀炎 actually said that there's a lot of people looking for an excuse to push 景元 out this entire time and the fact that he managed to hold his position meant he played the politics well. So...帝弓司天将 might actually be part of a religious system (in the sense that this position is specifically in relation to the god of Hunt and their power). So it's like a God-King type of thing (but lower on the hierarchy ladder, like Pope-General).
I mean I am starting to question just how much Dan Heng doesn't remember at this point. Like, for a guy who grew up in jail and then spent the majority of his adolescent life outside of Luofu, he's surprisingly well versed on not only the political structure and history, but also on things like ceremonial ritual and stuff.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-08 18:01 (UTC)I dunno, maybe we just don't have anything that equates IRL. Because as world sized ships, it would make sense for each Xianzhou Ship to be its own autonomous "kingdom". But as a fleet that probably used to be smaller, and once arose from the same polity, have a (mostly) common past and share the same "religion", and often exchange civilian and military personnel between them, it also makes sense for them to have a supra-national identity and governance system.
I think Huaiyan wasn't head of the Zhuming's Cloud Knights, but rather used to be the head of the Artisan Commission. He's currently retired and not heading any department of 六司, and his position of Arbiter-General (天将) was forced on him by the Marshal (presumably due to the previous one dying an leaving no suitable replacement behind, I'm guessing).
Dan Heng's schrodinger's knowledge of his past life just makes writing and reading serious fics featuring him that much harder.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-09 03:20 (UTC)...this honestly is probably the closest thing we've got, with the exception of the original ships all originating from the same country. But over the course of 8000 years, each ship probably diversified in terms of culture, plus the addition of Foxian and Vidyadhara at different ratios on each ship, the ships themselves probably hold a tighter cultural relation than the original tribes/species that the people originated from. (For example, I think the different tribes of Vidyadhara might have more political differences from Vidyadhara across ships than they have with non-Vidyadhara from the same ship.)
Yeah, that's what I'm getting, too. Huaiyan was head of 工造司. It sounds like, based on his lines, the title for the head of 工造司 is 百冶 regardless of the ship, of which he held the position. Also it sounds like he's been in and out of the position of Arbiter-General multiple times and took it up again specifically for this mission. As for him specifically being retired from 百冶... I'll have to listen to the lines again, but it doesn't sound like he's retired from the position on first viewing.
Does he even feature that much anymore? I thought fandom got taken over by Aventurine/Ratio?
no subject
Date: 2024-08-09 06:10 (UTC)Eh, this one I'm not sure of, for any of the subspecies, due to the simple fact that biology is just as much an impact on one's beliefs as location. For the Vidyadhara specifically, unless they can resolve their reproduction issue, or the Xianzhou somehow collectively go pacifist, they are basically a dying species. They are also a species that was never blessed by Abundance and thus have no personal history or beef in the Xianzhou's crusade against the Denizens of Abundance. It's probably why Dan Feng did what he did, and why so many Vidyadhara are even now colluding with the Abundance...
> Does he even feature that much anymore? I thought fandom got taken over by Aventurine/Ratio?
I presume there are still people writing Blade/Dan Heng fics since that pairing was always more popular. I just haven't really checked.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-09 07:50 (UTC)I mean we have confirmation that at least on 方壶 the Arbiter-General is 冱渊君, who also came to Luofu to help with putting down 饮月君 after the mess (essentially offering political legitimacy to the punishment 十王司 handed down). And all of the 六司 on 方壶 basically are under 冱渊君's command and are loyal to her(?) (based on the lore documentation here). That's basically a political dynamic that's vastly different from the more rebellious/confrontational nature of the Vidyadhara of Luofu.
I mean sure, but how many of Xianzhou's citizens are serving active duty in the pursuit of revenge against Abundance? From what I understand, the Vidyadhara (at least on Luofu) are mostly serving in a support capacity, not as front line soldiers (either as medical personnel or as intelligence secretaries). Plus, what real alternative do the Vidyadhara actually have? It seems like moving out of Xianzhou Alliance and colonizing an unoccupied planet isn't really a viable option. Fighting the Xianzhou Alliance for political power will only get them wiped out faster. 方壶 is already politically under the control of one Vidyadhara tribe, yet I don't see dissidents making a mass exodus to 方壶, which presumably faces the same biological problems. If anything, the lack of exodus suggests the other tribes don't politically agree with the political direction of 冱渊君.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-10 00:36 (UTC)The last Abundance War destroyed 1/5 of the Fanghu's population, because the ship itself had become the battleground, and the enemy on the verge of winning. That the Vidyadhara's ship *only* lost 1/5 is from collateral damage resulting from calling down The Hunt's divine nuke *on themselves*.
(I'll also mention, Dan Shu turned on the Xianzhou because her friend, who was serving as a backline healer during that war, was also collateralled by the nuke. So yeah, being a support unit in these wars ain't exactly safe either.)
If that battle had gone in any other way, it's likely the Vidyadhara would've lost the majority of their total population among the Xianzhou (and the Xianzhou potentially lost at least another ship). So I'm sure living on the Fanghu after that point isn't going to give anyone a sense of security...
Like, from the other Xianzhou (higher ups) point of view, that war was probably a success, since it also seemed to have broken the back of the Denizens of Abundance as a faction. But for the Vidyadhara (higher ups), it's probably the stuff of nightmares.
(And really, I think the only reason Phantylia picked the Luofu to attack instead of the Fanghu is probably because she was lusting after the Ambrosial Arbor. Because otherwise, the Fanghu would've been a much more obvious target for her kind of machinations.)
no subject
Date: 2024-08-10 03:47 (UTC)I'm so confused by Dan Shu's logic. From what I'm getting, Lan's arrow was fired on Fanghu and presumably the ones calling for help are also Fanghu's leadership. So if anyone ought to be held responsible for the collateral damage, shouldn't it be Fanghu, not Luofu, ruling body?
It sounds like that Fanghu is still under Vidyadhara rule. The 六御 politically support 冱渊君's authority, so the best chance of actually breaking off from Xianzhou Alliance is still starting there rather than picking a fight with Luofu's political body.
That's the other thing, ever since Jing Yuan took up the mantle, Luofu itself hadn't been threatened by any major attacks (per the game description of Jing Yuan's rule). So it sounds like Luofu actually managed to avoid a lot of the actual casualty. If anything, Luofu's Vidyadhara ought to be more content with the terms of the alliance than any other tribe.
Is Amborsial Arbor 建木? But also why that thing? From what I understand there's a problem item on every ship and each leader of the five Vidyadhara tribes seem to have been tasked with keeping an eye on/sealing off the problem item. Presumably those other things are similarly powerful.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-10 04:07 (UTC)With regards to calling down the divine nuke: Fu Xuan brought up the idea to the higher ups based on her predictions when the Xianzhou alliance started losing the war. Yuque's master diviner (Fuxuan's old teacher) provided the equipment and self-targeting. Yaoqing's previous general (the one before Feixiao) bought time to set it off. So it was a collaborative effort.
Dan Shu wanted revenge on the Xianzhou in general. That she became the Luofu's head of Alchemy Division just put her in the right place to collude with Phantylia and set off the stellaron crisis. Otherwise, she probably would've kept her sedition as a hidden underground movement for much longer.
Luofu's losses from that war appears to have been most of their airforce (fighter pilot equivalent) and a good amount of support units (such as Dan Shu's healer friend). Yukong, current head of the Luofu Sky-Faring Commission, is one of the few survivors, who has her own PTSD about it.
Amborsial Arbor 建木 is the plaguemark that was personally given to the Xianzhou by The Abundance. The rest of the plaguemarks in the Xianzhou alliance are stuff they seized from the Denizens of Abundance and sealed up for safekeeping. It's implied that the Arbor is the oldest plaguemark and the most potent.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-11 02:18 (UTC)Have fans compiled a chronological timeline yet? It'd really help to have all the years listed to better understand the timescale.
Two questions:
a) Fu Xuan is not a Luofu native or did she go to Yuque to train then come back to Luofu?
b) Where was Fanghu's political class during this decision making process given they're going to be ground zero of the nuke?
This is the thing I don't really understand about this faction: what exactly is their goal here? Vegeance or survival? If the goal is vengeance...then they're already walking the path of the Hunt, it's just their ire is directed at the wrong group of people. If they want survival, why aren't they focusing their efforts on breaking off from the Alliance and establishing themselves elsewhere? How does fighting the Xianzhou higher ups (including the arbiter-generals and other heads of departments) serve to push their self-preservation agenda?
...Did they seriously translate 神迹 as plaguemark? Really?
According to Baidu wiki, Ambrosial Arbor's fruit is what turned the original Xianzhou ppl into a long lived species, so ... checks out.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-11 06:45 (UTC)https://honkai-star-rail.fandom.com/wiki/Xianzhou_Alliance/History
> a) Fu Xuan is not a Luofu native or did she go to Yuque to train then come back to Luofu?
Fu Xuan was born on the Yuque. The previous Master Diviner predicted she would be the cause of his death, and took her in as personal apprentice. Fu Xuan refused to believe this was her inevitable destiny and filed for a transfer off the ship, ending up becoming the Master Diviner of the Luofu. So, yeah, bit of an classical Greek self-fulfilling prophecy background.
> b) Where was Fanghu's political class during this decision making process given they're going to be ground zero of the nuke?
Either on the battleground or even dead, possibly, given this was a desperate plan organized when the Xianzhou Alliance was about to lose the war.
> Dan Shu's goal...
Repudiate the Hunt and go back to the old days of worshipping the Abundance (including spreading the faith and influencing others into the same), from what I can tell. She might've also gone a bit nuts (PTSD). She re-founded the Sanctus Medicus underground faction, started doing forbidden research using Abundance tech and medicines, facilitated people going into mara state without getting caught by the Ten Lords Commission, and pretty much subverted lots of people in the Alchemy Commission by the time the stellaron crisis occurred.
> Did they seriously translate 神迹 as plaguemark? Really?
Plaguemark is the translation of "寿瘟遗祸" is what the Xianzhou locals tend to call them. 神迹 is probably the historical term used before they rejected Abundance, and maybe also used by outsiders.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-11 09:14 (UTC)Bookmarked. Will sort through this when I have more time and have caught up a bit more on the lore stuff.
I thought Fu Xuan's proposal got Fanghu nuked. How did Fu Xuan cause her master's death (presumably her master was still on Yuque at the time)?
But I thought Fanghu was given to 冱渊君 to rule at the start of Vidyadhara joining the Alliance. Presumably 冱渊君 is still alive during all this and must have had some kind of say? (S/he'd have to be since 冱渊君 is still alive in current game time.)
no subject
Date: 2024-08-11 16:25 (UTC)Since said ground zero was on the Fanghu, that means the main battleground was on the ship itself by that point. If the General & High Elder of the Fanghu, who would've been at least the top two of the Fanghu's top fighting tier depending on if they're the same person or not, wasn't out there at that point, then they'd be shitty leaders.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-18 03:24 (UTC)In game lore, maybe, but in reality, generals fighting on the front lines is a great way to fuck up the chain of command. 😑 Also, shouldn't Fanghu also have 六御? Even if the General isn't available, the heads of 丹鼎司、天舶司、太卜司、工造司、地衡司 should also be part of the decision making body, especially one that involves using Fanghu as ground zero for the nuke. According to lore, the heads of the six divisions are all loyal to the Vidyadhara, so like...whu?
no subject
Date: 2024-08-18 15:24 (UTC)And as for the decision for using Fanghu as ground zero for the nuke, again, as mentioned, it was because they were losing the war. So the alternative was losing all of the Fanghu to the Denizens of Abundance, rather than just 1/5 to the nuke.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-19 03:31 (UTC)This all started from me questioning the logic of getting angry at Luofu higher ups when Fanghu higher ups are just as complicit. Again, even assuming angry Vidyadhara dissidents ignore the tactical/survival reasons for calling down Lan, they're still directing their anger at the wrong group of people. Their own leadership agreed with the decision.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-19 08:05 (UTC)Dan Shu wasn't a Vidyadhara, BTW. So whatever beef the Vidyadhara, whether Luofu or elsewhere, have with the rest of the Xianzhou doesn't really factor.
Dan Shu's specific trigger for going nuts/evil was that her best friend was a field doctor who wasn't on the frontlines of the battle, but was still caught in the collateral damage of the nuke. Presumably, it wouldn't have mattered whether they called the nuke down on the Fanghu specifically or not. The blast damage from an Aeon's strike is always gonna hit a lot of collateral.
The decision and actions to trigger the nuke was done by the Xianzhou Alliance as a whole, so Dan Shu's beef was with the Xianzhou as a whole. However, she didn't have the power or influence to obviously declare war or rebellion or whatever directly. So her betrayal was carried out in secret and within her sphere of influence. Since she was the head of the Alchemy Commission on the Luofu, that was why she was the key to betraying the Luofu to Phantylia during the recent stellaron crisis.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-20 02:20 (UTC)Which I argue would make no sense for Vidyadhara dissent faction to even be dissenting because it doesn't seem like they actually have a functional alternative to sticking with the Xianzhou Alliance.
Oooh. I assumed she was given she was head of 丹鼎司, but OK, that puts things into perspective.
She sounds like she lost all logic and is lashing out. Basically an unhappy citizen with no solution to the problem so resorting to terrorism.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-20 06:56 (UTC)Well, the Vidyadhara faction that is actually betraying the Xianzhou looks like they've picked joining the Abundance side as the alternative.
Not really a smart choice from an objective POV, sure. But we're also not sure how smart (or sensible/sane/etc.) these people are...
And not sure why they thought teaming up with Phantylia (Emanator of *Destruction*) would help them get an in with Abundance... but it's possible Phantylia was also lying to them as well to manipulate them (since she did lie to Dan Shu), which fits her MO.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-20 14:20 (UTC)I know you already said they're not very smart, but like... If I'm getting the lore correct, Abundance gives effectively infinite longevity and youth, not actual immortality, right? Like, all the "blessed by Abundance" long-lived species are killable. The Vidyadhara already have effective immortality, aka their reincarnation cycle. They don't need the blessing from Abundance. They need reproduction, or the nearest equivalent; permanence, perservation, propagation all seem to be more useful for preventing death/increasing numbers than abundance. Permanence is gone, Propagation is bugs, so the only real option is Preservation, which...I would definitely be more convinced if the IPC is somehow involved with Vidyadhara sedition.
...Actually, this just makes me want to read a fic where the Sedition of Imbibitor Lunae was actually Dan Feng making a deal with IPC and causing a huge political mess rather than the canon pseudo-dragon thingy.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-20 17:07 (UTC)It's also likely that the Abundance faction (and Phantylia for that matter) could be lying to them and making empty promises.
Researching the Propagation would of course be the more obvious answer, so not sure why they don't do that. It's possible because the Xianzhou Vidyadhara don't have good means of getting Propagation samples for experimentation. I mean, we come across these because we're protagonist explorers and "buddies" with the Genius Society. But the Xianzhou wouldn't go out of their way to look for Swarm remnants since they're usually focused on the Abundance faction. Whereas if they want to experiment with the Abundance, the stuff is just *there*, and they only have to get past that pesky legal/taboo issue.
The ideals of the Preservation is to protect what you have. I guess if the Vidyadhara settled their own planet, it would be the ideal Path for them to switch to. But joining the IPC is less so, since the while some of the higher ups and founders of the IPC are Preservation zealots, the rank and file, and the institution itself, is not really focused on the ideal of Preservation. As a corporate entity, the overall goal of the IPC is to control the economy of the cosmos, so as to provide the best building material to Qlipoth (even though Qlipoth doesn't use them or care about any of this)...
no subject
Date: 2024-08-21 07:35 (UTC)I thought he used 化龙妙法, so basically the 龙尊 magic, to make Bailu? How was he even able to access 建木's powers in the first place?
Hold up, wasn't 白珩 an explorer? There was definitely something about Jing Yuan wishing he could be like her and going on adventures and stuff. How come Xianzhou never met up with more of the genius society before and how have they not made some kind of pact with them now regarding helping Vidyadhara and their reproduction issue?
And also why has no one written fic to fix this? Surely it's occurred to someone that Vidyadhara's need for reproduction and Ruan Mei's crazy penchant for biological experimentation should've crossed paths and resulted in some Vidyadhara clones by this point... (Am I wanting clones of Dan Feng running around to cause angst? Yes...yes I am.)
no subject
Date: 2024-08-21 16:15 (UTC)He had access to it because his role as 龙尊 is to keep watch over and maintain the seals for the Ambrosial Arbor. After Dan Feng, the role of watching over the Arbor was carried out by the Vidyadhara Preceptors (because people either didn't trust Bailu with it or didn't think she was capable of the duty). Then similarly, during the recent Stellaron crisis, Phantylia was able to get to the Arbor because she had some traitor Vidyadhara Preceptors helping her.
> 白珩
Baiheng used to be a Nameless but had retired from that role. Her time in the Quintet seemed to have been spent as a pilot of the Yaoqing. She also didn't have our protagonist plot armor, obviously.
> How come Xianzhou never met up with more of the genius society before and how have they not made some kind of pact with them now regarding helping Vidyadhara and their reproduction issue?
I mean, it's not that easy for most people make a deal with the Genius Society because they're less a faction and more a collection of eccentric geniuses who are only interested in their specific area of study.
Ruan Mei's experiment in recreating an Emanator of Propagation was more out of an ambition to attain Aeonhood herself, than looking to explore the mysteries of Propagation as a path. I'm not sure how much interest she would have into doing research into Permanence for the purpose of benefitting the Vidyadhara. But she doesn't seem to be the type to take requests. As well, the results of letting her do the research might just end up with a lot of dead bodies as fodder, resulting in a bunch of monster dragons (like Bailu's predecessors)...
no subject
Date: 2024-08-22 02:31 (UTC)I feel like if IPC can make a deal with these guys, then Xianzhou with it's frankly ridiculous diplomatic outreach should be able to establish some kind of relationship with them. Even failing to make a direct connection, there should be indirect methods, such as working through IPC. "It's hard" is a really piss poor narrative excuse to try and isolate these worlds from intergalactic diplomacy. Like FFS, it's a space opera, these factions should have complicated political relationships!
Wait wait, Ruan Mei is messing around with Propagation and miHoyo decided to NOT make her integral to Vidyadhara's can't procreate drama? I have never been more disappointed with this writing staff. This is the epitome of failing to fire Chekhov's gun.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-22 16:56 (UTC)Ruan Mei (who is the biologist genius) is a hermit who doesn't have anything to do with the IPC.
The IPC as an entity who is pretty much the backbone of the economy of the cosmos, has the capital to deal with geniuses, as they are able to provide money, resources, rare objects/info/etc. from all corners of the cosmos.
The Xianzhou as an entity is focused on war with the Abundance, and then outside of that is pretty much self contained. They receive diplomatic visitors and offers to some extent, but they don't do much outreach that's not related to Abundance-issues.
The Vidyadhara are a faction that belongs to the Xianzhou but as far as we have seen, they do not shape the Xianzhou's diplomatic policies. Nor are they important enough (or have enough to offer) in the general scheme of things for someone from the Genius Society to deign to reach out to them. (Like, scholars from the Intelligensia Guild might sneak around doing shady experiments off of Vidyadhara in a search for immortality, but those of the Genius Society can invent multiple ways of achieving immortality themselves.)
Ruan Mei messed around with Propagation because she was specifically looking to research Emanator status for a Path that currently doesn't have an Aeon in charge. Theoretically, she could've gone for any Aeon-less path, such as Beauty, Trailblaze, etc. But she had the data to do this for Propagation due to the Simulated Universe Swarm Disaster. Permanence disappeared long before that, and the lore hasn't given any examples of what a Permanence Emanator used to be like.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-10 00:28 (UTC)Do you think Lingsha resembles Yuuko from xxHolic a bit? That's what I automatically think of whenever I see her. =/
Part 4:
Actually, the Vidyadhara seem to be in charge of the Alchemy Commission on not just the Luofu. Lingsha mentions she was tutored by the High Elder of the Zhuming, for instance. I think it's a combination of the fact that Vidyadhara are naturally good at healing/biology, and the fact that the native Xianzhou Alchemy Commission was originally built around the worship of Yaoshi, and pretty much fell apart when the Xianzhou repudiated the Abundance and outlawed/sealed up a lot of Abundance-based tech/research. So when the Vidyadhara joined the Alliance, it would be natural for them to fill that vaccuum.
A lot of fanfic make Dan Feng the head of the Alchemy Division. But I don't think that would've been the case, since the Vidyadhara ruling group at least seem to prefer the High Elder keep their distance from Luofu civil issues. IMO, Dan Feng's relationship with the Alchemy Division was probably similar to Bailu's current relationship with them, sort of a living advertisement for Luofu's healing arts and their premiere healer, but not actually in the governance system.
The conflict that Lingsha is referring to is most likely related to the conflict between the Vidyadhara faction that wants switch over to the Abundance. It's both an internal conflict, and also a conflict with the Xianzhou, since this switching of allegiance is pretty much coming with a good serving of betrayal/rebellion. So Lingsha and her original mentor got squeezed out for their politics, and Jing Yuan arranged for them to get "exiled" to the Zhuming. It's not hard to equate this with him arranging for Dan Heng to be "exiled" from the Luofu, in that respect, as a means of protecting Xianzhou-loyal assets for potential future use.
BTW, saw this analysis recently on Bilibili that I found very informative: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1iS42197kD/
The great thing about it is the author tracked down a lot of supporting evidence from minor side lore from the various readables and stuff which I can't be bothered to look up. The last part speculating on how the governance system works for the Xianzhou based on their history I found really interesting. It's worth a look.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-10 01:44 (UTC)Between the hime-cut and the cloud/smoke clothing theme, yes. I wouldn't be surprised if she's heavily inspired by Yuuko's designs. (So there's at least one girl on the design team, lol.)
Is this in cutscenes or do we need to dig into lore stuff to find this detail? (Again, this is the reason why I feel like I need to actually play this game to get a better sense of the world.)
I mean that's basically what Lingsha was hinting at. Despite Lingsha saying she's not here for "personal vengeance", it's clear that what she's actually implying is she's not here as a spy and is going to be on Jing Yuan's side.
I'm about half way through this, but I feel like there's a lot of speculation that isn't really backed up. Like the statement that Mara only strikes between 800-1000 years, but that statement has no screencapped source to back up the claim. As far as I'm aware, that specific trivia came from a discussion of Mara in the context of 天人, not all long lived species. The source he cites for Foxian lifespan also never mentioned that Foxians aren't affected by Mara, as the text merely describes what's happening to the stem cells. According to the citation, the permanent youth of Foxians is maintained by essentially suspension of cellular scenescence, in which case death can't be caused by aging. If Foxians don't suffer from mara, then we can't explain why the mode of Foxian lifespan is 307 (per the screencap), since it's not aging that's killing them off. Further, if Borisin are capable of living up to 700 years, they're well within the range of error for Mara to befall them (based on the spread of lifespan of Foxians). I really feel like there's a lot of numbers being thrown around that's taken as exact cutoffs rather than rough estimates that's not being talked about. (Have to run but will try to finish the video later.)
no subject
Date: 2024-08-10 01:52 (UTC)This is from the background lore. You can probably find it on the wiki somewhere.
> Again, this is the reason why I feel like I need to actually play this game to get a better sense of the world
I dunno, a lot of the lore that I am aware of come from summaries and annotations from people who did the research and wrote it up for wiki or posts or whatever. It's not like I spend all my time in the game collecting and collating all the readables and item descriptions. And I don't think most people play it that way...
Regarding Lingsha, I suspect her main beef right now is with the opposing faction within the Vidyadhara.
Borisin in general aren't capable of living up to 700 years. Hoolay in specific is able to live that long, chalked up to his long history of taking magic pills.
no subject
Date: 2024-08-10 03:31 (UTC)Perhaps it's from my console playing habits, I definitely try to collect everything (at least that's relevant to the plots I'm interested in) to get a full perspective of the game world. I talk to every NPC at least twice every time I enter a map because you never know when the progress triggered new dialogue...
I saw the video mentioned the Borisin live up to 300-500 years (no citation), but that just makes it sound like they live just an itty-bitty longer than Foxians. But the argument about Mara only setting in at 800-1000 years still feels a bit speculative rather than factual.
Even if the mara thing is factual, it raises questions about the lore miHoyo already put out about Foxian longevity being the result of suppressed senescence. Because, again, if Foxians aren't aging and mara isn't an issue until 800+ years, then what's limiting them to a lifespan of 200-400 years? (This is why I think miHoyo fucked themselves over trying to give a "science-based" explanation for longevity instead of going with magic. In a world that already has gods, they really should've leaned harder into science-fantasy rather than hard sci-fi tropes.)
no subject
Date: 2024-08-10 04:19 (UTC)