Slowly comparing Chinese and English texts

[cashew]

OK, so a thing that was interesting to me as I'm looking through wiki and trying to find more official info on JY...

Here's an excerpt of the English description from story part II of Imbibitor Lunae:

On the other hand, the Cloud Knight Lieutenant who used to chat and laugh with the dragon contained his languid indolence, holding his devastator glaive in hand as he stood with his men to repel the borisin pawns attacking from the battlefield's wings...

Now here's the same paragraph in Chinese:

平日与他谈笑的那位云骑骁卫则收起一身闲散，手持阵刀，与所部军士们抵抗着侧翼袭来的步离战卒;

My interest is in the title. Obviously, the Cloud Knight Lieutenant is refering to JY, but the Chinese title is "骁卫". According to Baidu wiki, the title comes from:

汉 有骁卫将军， 东汉 改为骁骑。 晋 领营兵，兼统宿卫。 南朝 梁 置左右骁骑。 隋 改置左右骁卫府，为禁卫军之一。 唐 宋 因之，而去“府”字，设上将军、大将军、将军等官。 金 元 皆无。参阅《通典·职官十》、《续通典·职官十》。

Translating points of interest, in Han, "骁卫" is followed by the "general" title. The name got changed for a for a few dynasties until Sui, where the name returns to 骁卫 with 府 added, and now refers to the imperial body guards rather than straight up military. In Tang & Song dynasty, the 府 got removed, and added multiple "general" ranks (brigadier general, major general, lieutenant general, etc.).

So my point here is that it's possible the "lieutenant" English translation is actually meant to be "lieutenant general" (aka 3-star general), which makes JY very high ranked. At this point, he would be the equivalent of second-in-command to the general. Because the memory description is of JY attending battle, it's unlikely his rank is that of a bodyguard at this time.

Of course, Luofu's ranks might not follow RL military ranks, but given the literary/military reference, I'm inclined to to intrepret the memory from Imbibitor Lunae's story as refering to JY becoming second-in-command.

It also means that despite the joking around about promoting Fu Xuan to general, her actual position as Head of Divination Comission means she's actually pretty far away from getting promoted to general. On the other hand, Yan Qing is referred to both as 侍卫 and 骁卫, he's also the youngest 骁卫... So, if the titles are consistent, then the actual person that's second-in-command to JY is Yan Qing, but he's also mostly serving as a bodyguard... So is he actually here based on merit or is this just JY favoring his disciple and giving him a position he totally is not ready for?

Meanwhile, Jing Liu's only known title was Sword Champion, one she shares with current Yan Qing, so like... uh... Was JY higher ranked than his master?! Because it sounds like she was officially part of the military (if the animated short is anything to go by), but we don't know of her actual position, or if she was some kind of special unit that's not part of the regular chain of command.

Anyway, so many questions on how the system works!

Comments

[tanithryudo]

I think this is mixing up multiple systems...

So the Luofu's civil governance is split up between 6 divisions, officially. Of these, the Cloud Knights is just one of these divisions, led by a general. In terms of peacetime everyday governance, they would be on equal terms with the other 5 divisions and their respective heads, making up the 6 Charioteers.

(As an aside, in addition to the official 6 divisions, there's also the secret police division, which most people don't know about, but also seem to have pretty hefty political power in their domain, so may be equal to the 6 official divisions. As well, it seems the Vidyadhara also have an separate internal self governance, so it's likely the High Elder also had some level of overall political weight in Luofu when it comes to issues related to their race.)

骁卫 is most likely a rank internal to within the Cloud Knights division. Sword Champion also seems to be a Cloud Knight internal title. Not much is known about it, but based on the name of the title and genre conventions, I would hazard to guess that this title is given either after attaining some level of merits, or based on some kind of tournament.

I don't think Yanqing is officially a Sword Champion yet, he's just currently aspiring to become one. Did a quick search for him plus the 骁卫 title and came up with this and this. These are referring to illusion boss fights, so it's just depicting a potential future version of Yanqing rather than his current self.

Above is all regarding the Xianzhou Luofu, just 1 ship of the 6 in the overarching Xianzhou Alliance. Officially, when talking about the alliance, the term "Arbiter-General" (帝弓天将) is used. IMO this term is used to describe whoever is bearing the direct blessing of Lan for their ship (and thus controlling the Lightning Lord equivalent). This person may be the general of the cloud knights on their respective ship (which makes sense, since the Xianzhou is a war fleet and the path of the Hunt is a war path), but it could also potentially be a head of one of the other divisions. So this "General" can overlap with the Cloud Knights "General" but may not necessarily be referring to the same title.

[cashew]

So the Luofu's civil governance is split up between 6 divisions, officially. Of these, the Cloud Knights is just one of these divisions, led by a general.

So, based on what you're saying, it sounds like the Cloud Knights actually have civil duties on top of their military duties, am I getting that right?

Also, according to official miHoyo managed Fu Xuan wiki (here), her position is "太卜司之首" (see 角色百科 section). Thus she would be a civil officer. In-game and during the character introduction PV, she's constantly referencing to taking over as the general and asking JY to retire, so either she's the one mixing up the promotion protocols or the General of the Cloud Knights can be promoted from other divisions...

骁卫 is most likely a rank internal to within the Cloud Knights division

I get that. I'm pointing out that the English translation calling the position "lieutenant" might not be accurate. It's probably better to call the position "lieutenant general" aka a 3-star general, because in Chinese 骁卫 is historically a type of military "general" position. (IRL, there are different ranks of generals, thus it's possible the game is using 骁卫 because it sounds older, to differentiate the higher military ranks.) Normally, there's 准将、少将、中将、上将、大将, all of which would be "将军" when referenced by title. I'm just pointing out that in-game, "将军" probably is the equivalent of IRL 大将 while 骁卫 is probably something like IRL 上将.

"Lieutenant" is a significantly lower military rank, hence why I don't think it is an appropriate translation for 骁卫. "Lieutenant General" is probably much closer to the reality of what that position corresponds to IRL terms (which is the terminology the English translation is using).

Sword Champion also seems to be a Cloud Knight internal title.

Based on Yan Qing's character story part III, quote: "摘取罗浮「剑首」，乃至联盟「剑魁」的冠称", it seems that the 剑首 is limited to each ship, while 剑魁 is for the whole Xian Zhou fleet. It also doesn't sound like a Cloud Knight officer title so much as some kind of tournament title based on the classification "冠称".

I don't think Yanqing is officially a Sword Champion yet, he's just currently aspiring to become one.

OK, yeah, I read that portion too fast. Fic writers seemed to have made the same mistake as I have.

These are referring to illusion boss fights, so it's just depicting a potential future version of Yanqing rather than his current self.

According to miHoyo wiki (here), his character story Part I indicates he is "云骑军历史上最年轻的骁卫". The English translation states he is "Youngest lieutenant in the history of the Cloud Knights." Again, this is unambiguously indicating the English is translating 骁卫 as "lieutenant", when I think it's more accurately translated as "lieutenant general". So Yan Qing being a 骁卫 is definitely current, not illusion or aspiration.

So this "General" can overlap with the Cloud Knights "General" but may not necessarily be referring to the same title.

OK, so I checked the character explainer (here), and Fu Xuan mentions JY keeps bringing up "退位让贤". The phrase is usually referring to emperors, so it's possible she's talking about asking JY to remove himself as the Arbiter-General rather than as the General, but it's also possible the General of the Cloud Knights serve as the highest authority on each individual ship. Either interpretation is, to me, valid.

[tanithryudo]

To clarify, Fu Xuan is looking to be promoted to the position of Arbiter General of the Luofu. Not to be the head of the Cloud Knights.

As for localization, I think they use "lieutenant" instead of "Lt General" because not many people know what the latter is and the translators probably thought it would cause more confusion than just using "Lieutenant" as to mean "deputy/right hand man".

[cashew]

My personal feeling is "lieutenant" makes it sound like JY was much lower ranked during the memory description, which probably feeds the fanon that JY met Dan Feng at a much younger age than canon intended. I honestly don't think Lt General is that much harder to understand for an English audience.

Or maybe intended 骁卫 as a far lower position so they used "lieutenant" in the English translation. Unless we get a Q&A session with the actual developers, it's all speculation.