At least now I have one person's math on Jing Yuan's age
Saturday, September 21st, 2024 23:52![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cashewI'm noticing three assumptions:
Using modern interpretation of 少年 even though the Chinese used in Xianzhou material is semi-archaic (such as calling domesticated cats 狸奴 and not the modern name 猫). As I've mentioned before, up until 1911, the phrase 少年 was used to refer to people as old as 25-30 years old.
Zero regard for appearance and age mis-match, especially when judging age of long lived species. No acknowledgement of the fact that Baiheng is also described as 少女 and thus should be around the same age (appearance-wise) as Jing Yuan.
Asserts that Xianzhou Natives long lived species matures at the same rate as short lived species as fact without citation. The only "support" we have is the lore stating
成年后身体不再衰老
. Note that for Foxians the wording is成年后面目不老
.
The thing about point three is that for Xianzhou Natives the description is "after maturity the body no longer undergo senescence", while Foxians state "after maturity the appearance no longer ages". This is immensely important difference! This means Foxians age physically, but their appearance don't. In contrast, Xianzhou Natives don't undergo senescence, which does not mean lack of growing, it only means the falling apart aspect of growing stops.
So basically, Xianzhou Natives have lobster biology. Much like lobsters eventually grow too big for their physiology to keep up with the energy cost (2nd law of thermodynamics does not forgive and never forgets!), the Xianzhou Natives' system (in this case their brain) starts breaking down at the 800-1000 year mark due to not being able to process the psychological trauma.
But this still means we have zero clues on the maturation rate of all the long lived species (Xianzhou Natives, Foxians, Vidyadhara) and no way to guess at the actual age.
I notice that the math post once again asserts that Dan Feng was 600-700 years old with no citation. Given 2.5 patch confirming that Vidyadhara do appear old and decrepit toward the end of their cycle (per Dan Heng's own words), Dan Feng's fairly young appearance is pretty good evidence he was nowhere near the end of his cycle. (Edit to add: OTOH, Qingzu's appearance throws that claim out the window, so it's more like the appearance is not a very good estimate for age. We need actual events.)
One thing I am wondering is if the Sword Champion title is something one can get repeatedly. The math post asserts Jingliu got it for the first time and that was the day Yingxing gifted her the sword, but we actually have no clue how the Sword Champion thing works. Previously the assumption was the Wardance might have something to do with it, but we know in 2.5 that traditionally the 龙尊 is actually the one charged with being the ringmaster (that's how they translated 守擂?) and the whole thing has nothing to do with swords Champion competition. So the Sword Champion is something else. (Plus the last time Jing Yuan took the job instead, why?) Anyway, point is, is Sword Champion title that needs defending? Because if so, then it's very likely at the time Jingliu got her sword from Yingxing, that wasn't her first time as Sword Champion.
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Date: 2024-09-21 23:48 (UTC)Dan Feng being 600-700 years old seems to have no support.Ok, I've found the reference to Dan Feng being ~600: "靡靡赤龙，森森青松 / 六百余年凡尘中 / 如梦尽是空". But this seems to be talking about his age at the time of death/forced molting. As we discussed before, it's very possible his trial took a long span of time to sort out. Or, it could even be possible that the poet is just using the average age of Vidyadhara and doesn't actually know (or bother to research) Dan Feng's age.Then regarding the whole appearance thing, I found the image in question, which actually is interesting in that Dan Heng says Taoran looked close to the end of lifespan at the time of Dan Heng's exile. But, this guy is also a peer of Dan Feng and looked old at that time already. This brings up problems with Dan Feng/Dan Heng's timeline again... Did this guy reborn once soon after the Sedition, and then again after Dan Heng's rebirth (within the last century), and still hatched + grew up faster than Dan Heng? Or, did he rebirth several centuries after the Sedition, when Dan Heng was reborn a few centuries ago...and still matured faster than Dan Heng? Ugh... rather, it does successfully prove that we can't use visual cues to identify the age of Vidydhara, because there's a huge variation in the rate of maturation, lifespan, and egg-time.
Wrt to Sword Champion and the Wardance... My understanding is that Sword Champion goes to the person with the best swordsmanship ability on the ship. How that would be determined is likely via a tournament, or possibly also by regularly scheduled challenges by hopefuls seeking to take the title from the reigning champ. From Yanqing's character lore, it sounds like that after Jingliu, there were people who could've have taken this Sword Champion position. But it's just that they didn't want the official title used after her anymore.
As for the Wardance, it seems to be something that *could* potentially be used to determine a new Sword Champ, but doesn't *have* to be. After all, the Wardance has a lot of foreigners and non-sword-wielding participants who obviously wouldn't be competing for a title that's sword-specific and tied to a Xianzhou military position. My take is that if there's a Sword Champion, they could volunteer to defend their title in that tournament. Same with the high elder. So during the Wardance ~700 years ago, it's likely Jingliu and/or Dan Feng foisted the task off to Jing Yuan. My guess is that, if a Xianzhou swordsman wins the Wardance, they would they have the additional right to further challenge the current Sword Champion for that title (possibly ahead of whatever line exists for that challenge rights).
> Because if so, then it's very likely at the time Jingliu got her sword from Yingxing, that wasn't her first time as Sword Champion.
This I would think to be unlikely, unless she lost the position to someone else, and later regained the title. But given Jingliu's reputation and general level of ability that we know from her, that's unlikely to be the case.
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Date: 2024-09-22 01:11 (UTC)Jingliu also used the phrase "百年之身", suggesting that, yes, the expected life expectancy for short lived is close to 100. Probably 90+ given how senescence affects human. Fine motor control, however, will probably start fading around the 70 year mark. Doesn't stop Yingxing from still being able to do the designing part of his job, but he's probably not building anything by that time.
Never got into explaining this Chinese bit previously，did I? Yeah, this is again a Chinese-fail, because the only thing this line proves is the average expectancy is 600+ years. (Probably low 600s given the average cycle falls between 500 and 600.) 六百余年 is used poetically, much like how the line from 《满江红·怒发冲冠》「三十功名尘与土，八千里路云和月」uses numbers as a metaphor for "lifetime" and "northern campaign". 三十 is because of the phrase "三十而立" (people are expected to establish a career by 30 years old) and 八千里 is a "long distance to travel", much like wishing someone 万岁 doesn't actually mean 10000 years life but rather immortality. Here, 六百余年 is used to describe a lifetime probably because that's on average the cycle length of 龙尊. The line is just saying "spent an entire life doing nothing", not "died at 600+ years old". Spending the majority of his lifespan in prison would definitely inspire this kind of lyrical lament, which further cements my belief in that 丹枫 was relatively young when he got imprisoned.
I was thinking given Taoran has been using the memory potion and he even claims he looks monstrous due to messing around with illegal substances, is it possible the memory potion (plus whatever else 龙师 have been fucking around with) might have some side effects such as accelerating aging? Dunno.
But I think it's important to remember game graphics are a poor representation of the reality of the world. JRPGs (which clearly inspired HSR) don't bother to render every little detail. You have to use the dialogue to figure out what's happening in reality. Like the implication is Jing Yuan faints from bloodloss/injury, even though his in-game render looks exactly the same. Since HSR uses in-game models to render cutscenes (as opposed to animation), the visuals can't be interpreted as a 1-to-1 reproduction of the reality.
Like people thinking Jiaoqiu doesn't look banged up enough is an example of forgetting in-game models aren't the actual reality. It's not that he's not banged up, it's that the in-game graphics aren't rendering his battered body. (I see no reason why Jiaoqiu can't be up and walking after a few weeks when Jing Yuan is also walking around after severe bloodloss and having a hole punched through his chest. It's not like the guy's sprinting around perfectly healed. He's probably just taking a few steps into the courtyard for fresh air. Foxians might not have super healing, but we do know that they have super stem cells that can erase all the non-lethal damage dealt to them, it's how they remain perpetually youthful.)
Basically all the info is from Yanqing's story: Not only do we know there's two titles (剑首、剑魁), but also that the title is a "冠称". Aka, it's a competition title, not a position. A lot of people use Jingliu's personal story where it's described as "荣任" (honorably take up the position) to mean that 剑首 is an actual official position, but I think in this case Jingliu is just old so her personal story descriptions use excessive metaphor (per classic Chinese), and it's just a very, very polite way of saying "crowned the winner".
All this to say that I think it's a) a title and b) probably requires defending and regaining whenever the challenge comes around. How it works, dunno, but I greatly doubt meeting Yingxing was Jingliu's first time being crowned Sword Champion. Given Yingxing has been waiting a while to gift his sword to the Sword Champion, it suggests that the challenge for the position comes around at the most frequent once a decade, probably even less than that. Hence why he wouldn't have given it to the previous Sword Champion since it's been a loooong time and, being an arrogant little fuck, Yingxing probably thinks whomever gets his sword as to prove themselves in his lifetime.
Hell, I can see this as part of the reason Jingliu says Yingxing doesn't respect anyone. Yingxing might have even told Jingliu he doesn't accept her "prior" claim to the title unless she proves herself again. (Obvious headcanon is obvious.)
Is it possible the competition got suspended and that's why the "title" remained empty?
I mean that is certainly the implication. But if we go with your teenage emo drama hypothesis, then it's entirely possible Dan Feng wasn't equipped to defend the ring, because he wasn't experienced enough yet. Like, what if...he was still too small to fight. Again, if we assume Dan Feng was not "super old" when he was arrested and is actually fairly young, then it's entirely possible at the time of the previous Wardance, Dan Feng just isn't physically up for taking on the job.
If the title works like how sports titles work, you have to defend and get re-crowned champion. That's what I meant when saying "regained". Even in the case of a successful defense, it would still be called "crowned champion". Because technically the Champion title becomes "up for grabs" as soon as the competition starts and the previous Champion no longer "has the title" automatically. (Reference: basically any seasonal competition system such as Club Football, American Football, Olympics, etc. Essentially the title has an expiration date and is applied retroactively. Aka the "Champion" only applies to the season of the competition and doesn't carry to the future.)
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Date: 2024-09-22 04:16 (UTC)Sure, but Dan Heng does especially comment on his appearance. And secondly this is a new model they've designed, instead of just copy pasta an existing NPC model (which makes me also wonder if he's going to show up in the future again). People even noted that it's quite detailed to be a throwaway NPC, and good enough to be a potential playable character (I hope not though).
> Like people thinking Jiaoqiu doesn't look banged up enough is an example of forgetting in-game models aren't the actual reality.
It's not that he doesn't look banged up enough. The cutscene of him bleeding out does go pretty well with his near death experience. And it's not that people didn't find it believable that the Xianzhou has the ability to revive him from near death. The main objection there is that people didn't think it made sense narratively to have him survive, and wanted him dead to give more threat value to Hoolay's rampage, and emotional impact on Feixiao as a character.
Regarding Sword Champion... we really don't have enough info to say. I figure eventually Yanqing will get the title and we'll find out how it works then.
> Is it possible the competition got suspended and that's why the "title" remained empty?
Exact words are:
Since the Sedition of Imbibitor Lunae, the title of Sword Champion among the Luofu Cloud Knights has remained vacant for centuries. Not that nobody wants to claim it, but for a rather more embarrassing reason:
The previous Sword Champion, a legendary swordmaster with 13 outstanding accolades, violated the laws of heaven, resulting in her name being wiped from the face of the cosmos. Even the prestigious title that she bore became a sore spot for others.
> Dan Feng wasn't equipped to defend the ring, because he wasn't experienced enough yet. Like, what if...he was still too small to fight.
I dunno, we have readables showing that midget sized Vidyadhara are perfectly capable of kicking the butts of full grown cloud knight recruits. They develop pretty quickly in that respect.
Dan Feng is also on record as having sparred more than once on equal ground with Jingliu, that being how they became friends (ie. early in the Quintet period), so he ought to be capable of fighting.
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Date: 2024-09-22 10:36 (UTC)Yes, I agree with this. 丹恒 saying 涛然 looks old before but looks young now is the key. In addition, 涛然 saying he looks monstrous is also a reminder that he's not supposedly to be good looking despite the bishie design.
From a profit perspective, it would be a waste to only use this asset once and never again, so I feel like future appearances are definitely a thing.
Well my objections to those takes are:
Jiaoqiu being alive makes narrative sense, it's called a red herring. Narratives misdirect readers all the time. Unless there's significant setup and repeated foreshadowing (which is not the case with Jiaoqiu), there's been no violation of the narrative setup.
Killing Jiaoqiu doesn't make Hoolay threatening. Jiaoqiu is a civilian, Hoolay has already killed plenty of civilians, one more won't make a difference. Hoolay feeling un-threatening is the result of poor writing, killing off a PC won't fix the structural problem.
Killing a character to give another character a reason to be sad is called "fridging". It is a classic case of bad writing. These guys are proving they don't know how to write a good story and should STFU.
So...the Chinese equivalent:
自「饮月之乱」后，罗浮云骑军中武艺之尊「剑首」 的名衔已空悬数百年——并非无人想要争取，而是某些更隐秘难言的原因：
前任剑首，那位留下十三奇功的传奇剑士，触犯天律，被抹去了名字。连她所得到的荣誉，也成了旁人难以触碰的痛处。
It sounds like this might be a title internal to Cloud Knights. But also seems like it's honorary. But also there's definitely some kind of competition for it. Wait and see I guess.
What if...丹枫 was still an egg? If we push the Wardance date ahead by a few decades and if we assume 丹恒 is currently < 50 years old, the time could work out...barely.
But yeah, seems likely 丹枫 just foisted the job off onto 景元 at this point.
Wat. I always assumed 镜流 kicked his butt. Is this because he can use magic? Or is it pure martial ability?
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Date: 2024-09-22 16:14 (UTC)*sigh* Let's hope he says something useful the next time he shows up.
> Well my objections to those takes are
Not saying I agree with the people who wanted Jiaoqiu dead. Just saying that's where they're coming from. And these are fans, not writers, so they're not *required* to know good writing. :p
> I always assumed 镜流 kicked his butt. Is this because he can use magic? Or is it pure martial ability?
Most likely because of magic, because it's unlikely Yingxing would've made his Cloud Piercer yet. But it's not like the Wardance restricts the use of magic, so he would've still been a valid defender there.
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Date: 2024-09-22 22:20 (UTC)I'm curious. Where in canon does it say that 丹枫 managed to fight 镜流 on equal grounds? Not fan speculation, but actual canon statement. Like where's the source for this?
If fans want to have conversations about the quality of the canon writing, then, akshually, yes, yes they are required to know good writing.
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Date: 2024-09-23 03:33 (UTC)"The high elder of the Luofu, as haughty and detached as the high moon in the sky, felt an irresistible temptation to duel with her upon witnessing her peerless martial prowess with just one simple glance.
The spear and the sword sparred for many years without a conclusion, until she cleaved ocean tides in twain with a single slash in the Dragonvista Rain Hall, and finally won the high elder's concession."
Seems like either Dan Feng used a normal spear before Cloud Piercer, or this was after he got that from Yingxing.
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Date: 2024-09-23 04:25 (UTC)Ah, ok, I see. Original Chinese:
枪与剑 here is metaphorical, referring to 丹枫 and 镜流 respectively. But also 争锋 isn't a duel/spar. That's bad translation. 争锋 means side-by-side competition, like a race. So this is a case of mistranslation.
Edit to add: 争锋 can be thought of as like
A: "I can hit a target from 100 paces."
B: "Well I can hit it from 200 paces."
And that type of competition also makes more sense than sparring, since 镜流 would probably not want to accidentally hurt the 龙尊 in a friendly duel and have to explain how this happened to her superiors. The fact that what convinces 丹枫 of 镜流's superiority is her "cutting a wave in half"... Ain't no way she was doing that in a spar where both sides hold back from going all out.
Also, if the writers actually wanted to describe a spar, that would've been 过招 or 切磋.
Edit 2: 争锋 is also a more "hidden" (隐晦) style of competition, with the extended meaning 争风吃醋, a non-direct competition .
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Date: 2024-09-23 07:34 (UTC)If Dan Feng was an egg or crawling toddler, Jingliu wouldn't be competing in any capacity with him. She's got better things to do with her time than babysit.
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Date: 2024-09-23 08:29 (UTC)We don't have the timing of these events. As long as there's the possibility of the Wardance happening pre-Quintet, then there's the possibility of 丹枫 being an egg when the Wardance was happening.
Whether 丹枫 was equal to 镜流 martial ability-wise doesn't affect the timing. That tangent was me expressing surprise at the conclusion that 丹枫 was able to hold his own against 镜流 during the early years of the Quintet.
As I've said before, it's far more likely that 丹枫 foisted the job off onto 景元. There's a very slim possibility that Wardance happened before Quintet formed. Like it's not been completely shut down as a possibility, just very unlikely at this rate. Much like shota!景元 during Quintet era is becoming more and more likely. Canon hasn't outright stated this is the case, but it's heavily implied in patch 2.5.
I wouldn't be surprised if in the future we get outright confirmation that 景元 was actually super young for most of the Quintet era and ret-conning the 玄黄 PV scene of adult!景元 drinking with the group, since it seems the writers are writing whatever the fanbase wants to see (up to a point - clearly canonizing BL is a no go) and the fanbase seems to really have their hearts set on 景元 being the youngest and the baby of the group.